Thread

proposals for HO meeting agenda

demolitionred, 11 Apr 2006 15:03:07

Spanner, SM Pride and backlash are co-operating to draw up an agenda for next week's meeting.

I have been asked to sugegst topics backlash would like raised.

These are the suggestions put forward by David M. Could you please amedn (maybe set up a write board?) to adapt these to the format of agenda topics...

This matter needs urgent attention.

Thanks

Bad democracy - cite TB who summarised argument precisely.

bad politics
- will enforce authoritarian perceptions of LP
- proponents vocal, most opponents [100's k] will not be, will just vote other way

wrong solution
- bad things happening pre internet, trends unchanged
- "normalisation" argument needs far more research
- should devote resources to identifying Coutts like people from pre-existing evidence

won't work
- you don't have international support
- policing actions will be abitrary, far more instances than you anticipate
- definitional problems
- unintended consequences, eg more suicides
- will be contested through HRA - referring to Rabinder singh's opinion.

Jon Fuller, 13 Apr 2006 18:03:39

Re Suicides - The State has a duty under HRA article 2 to protect life. It
would be interesting to hear views of Liberty with regard to the UK which
must know it will drive previously innocent people to suicide.

Jon

demolitionred@yahoo.com, 13 Apr 2006 18:03:39

>Subject: [backlash] proposals for HO meeting agenda
>
>Spanner, SM Pride and backlash are co-operating to draw up an agenda for
>next week's meeting.
>
>I have been asked to sugegst topics backlash would like raised.
>
>These are the suggestions put forward by David M. Could you please amedn
>(maybe set up a write board?) to adapt these to the format of agenda
>topics...
>
>This matter needs urgent attention.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>Bad democracy - cite TB who summarised argument precisely.
>
>bad politics
>- will enforce authoritarian perceptions of LP
>- proponents vocal, most opponents [100's k] will not be, will just vote
>other way
>
>wrong solution
>- bad things happening pre internet, trends unchanged
>- "normalisation" argument needs far more research
>- should devote resources to identifying Coutts like people from
>pre-existing evidence
>
>won't work
>- you don't have international support
>- policing actions will be abitrary, far more instances than you anticipate
>- definitional problems
>- unintended consequences, eg more suicides
>- will be contested through HRA - referring to Rabinder singh's opinion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
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>visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
>To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
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zak, 15 Apr 2006 02:25:58

Original Message:
-----------------

demolitionred@yahoo.com, 15 Apr 2006 02:25:58

Spanner, SM Pride and backlash are co-operating to draw up an agenda for
next week's meeting.

I have been asked to sugegst topics backlash would like raised.

These are the suggestions put forward by David M. Could you please amedn
(maybe set up a write board?) to adapt these to the format of agenda
topics...

This matter needs urgent attention.

Thanks

wrong solution
- bad things happening pre internet, trends unchanged
- "normalisation" argument needs far more research
- should devote resources to identifying Coutts like people from
pre-existing evidence

Be careful of that latter option: it smacks to much of the equally dodgy
Personality Disorder thing which basically advocates locking people up
indefinitely because they *might* do something. Not a proposal we ought to
support.

Z

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mobscene, 15 Apr 2006 17:05:12

I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but perhaps a point about the numbers of children being abused and killed weekly in the UK, child porn still a major global problem, etc - that police and authority resources are far better directed towards reducing harm to minors and working globally to combat this problem rather than intefering with adults. A decision to scrap these plans in favour of redoubling their efforts against child porn/abuse would be politically acceptable and save face...

Also, the next time a July 7th happens, how are they going to look having directed police resources towards monitoring what porn sites people are viewing instead of preventing terrorist acts...

Could mention recent ruling about Immigrant marriage rulings and Human Rights to emphasise the courts do take the Convention on Human Rights seriously...

Not sure if these are useful or how HO meetings work, but just thought I'd throw them in.

Really just wanted to take the opp to wish you well for the meeting and thank those involved for all your efforts to fight these proposals. I hope you will be coming back with some positive outcomes.

Paul Tavener, 16 Apr 2006 20:05:40

Not sure if its too late but...

I think it would be useful to draw attention to the huge credibility gap where proportionality is concerned. Specificaly with an analogy:

Consider alcohol, hundreds inocent people are killed by it every year. people are mown down by drunken drivers and still more people (mostly women) are battered to death by their drunken partners. Yet alcohol is legaly sold across the country and there are no plans to stop this killing.

Now consider violent porn, there is no proof that it causes the effects that it stand accused of and few people are even suggested to have died as a result of it, yet we are about to enact laws to control violent porn not alcohol.

Why?

zak, 16 Apr 2006 21:09:16

Original Message:
-----------------

robhardcoreuk@yahoo.co.uk, 16 Apr 2006 21:09:16

mobscene, 18 Apr 2006 13:58:59

No I wasn't - sorry if it came over that way, most of the abuse is by parents and carers who have never looked at cp, I know, but you can't tell that to the tabloid mentality.

My only point was that this could appeal to the HO mentality if they did decide they needed to take steps back from these proposals...

> numbers of children being abused and killed weekly in the UK, child porn
> still a major global problem, etc - that police and authority resources are
> far better directed towards reducing harm to minors and working globally to
> combat this problem rather than intefering with adults.
> Just a note: a lot of children are horribly abused with pornography having
> nothing to do with it: don't conflate all harm to children with that great
> modern spectre of "child pornography".
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .

Teddy, 18 Apr 2006 15:41:41

I agree. I think Coutts should be left out of our arguments, as far as possible. This insistence (by the anti-porn lobby) on using him as a psychological template for the whole of society is at the core of the problems with this legislation.

T.

> - should devote resources to identifying Coutts like people from
> pre-existing evidence
> Be careful of that latter option: it smacks to much of the equally dodgy
> Personality Disorder thing which basically advocates locking people up
> indefinitely because they *might* do something. Not a proposal we ought to
> support.
> Z

Amelie, 29 Apr 2006 13:40:57

Some very encouraging information is coming together from recent research
about why accessing and reprocessing memory traces from primitive coding in
the hippocampal system where it can be randomly triggered without conscious
thought, and processing it through associative cortex where it is available
subject to rationalisation is the process by which counselling works.

It is also arguably the process by which viewing pornographic images
defuses irrational urges to behave in an antisocial manner....

Lots of fascinating stuff here so I shall probably spend the next few weeks
putting together a reasoned psychological explanation.

Any additional thoughts, references etc. are more than welcome.

Amelie