Liberty is it worth defending?

Silver, 04 Nov 2005 14:18:51

I can’t help feeling to fight the proposed bill from a bdsm stand point is a total waste of time and resource. The government will simply not take us seriously. The authorities will simply say to themselves what do you expect these perverted people are the very group we need to save from themselves. They may even find it heartening to realise that there are so many pervs out there to covert to good fresh pure thoughts.

We are looking at the thin edge of the wedge because the proposed bill affects us directly, but it doesn’t take much looking around to see our freedom and liberties are being legislated away by the month.

Yes, I agree the proposed bill is an extremely serious matter so much so I am happy to make a small personal pledge to help finance a fighting fund and I confident a great many of us in the community will. However, what concerns me is ‘backlash’ the vehicle we should be doing this from? We need to fight from a wider angle to captivate and encourage ordinary folk (vanillas) if the movement is to have credibility.

Now our three main political parties are so merged it time to present a new party fighting from the platform of liberty. The bdsm movement would provide the essential base for a party to begin and from there with the right publicity we can draw in vanilla membership. A political party will give us greater access to the media and other advantages a pressure group doesn't.


A political party will allow us to fight this bill and others without any witch-hunt taken against any individual because of his/her sexuality.


There is no doubt at all in my mind the average chap in the street values his freedoms and liberties. There is a huge resource of people out there we need to tap and bring onside. It is wrong to assume the government will not take notice of a small political party they do.

Silver


AV8R, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:33

Author wrote:
> I can’t help feeling to fight the proposed bill from a bdsm stand point is a total waste of time and resource. The government will simply not take us seriously. The authorities will simply say to themselves what do you expect these perverted people are the very group we need to save from themselves. They may even find it heartening to realise that there are so many pervs out there to covert to good fresh pure thoughts.


I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the same place the gay community was 50 years ago.

Many other countries have recognised BDSM as a sexuality, it is about time the UK did too.

And sexual discrimination (which is what this bill is really about) is illegal and unjust.

Av8r


Graham Marsden, 04 Nov 2005 15:36:42

flagoftheunion@hotmail.com wrote:

> I can\x{2019}t help feeling to fight the proposed bill from a bdsm stand
> point is a total waste of time and resource. The government will
> simply not take us seriously.

As has been discussed before, this is not what we're doing. Yes, many of
the people on this list are BDSMers, but there are people from all sorts
of other groups too, BDSM is just one string to the bow.

> Now our three main political parties are so merged it time to
> present a new party fighting from the platform of liberty. The
> bdsm movement would provide the essential base for a party to
> begin and from there with the right publicity we can draw in
> vanilla membership. A political party will give us greater
> access to the media and other advantages a pressure group doesn't.

I'm sorry, but how can you argue on one hand that "to fight the proposed
bill from a bdsm stand point is a total waste of time and resource. The
government will simply not take us seriously" and, then, immediately
afterwards, suggest starting what is effectively a BDSM based Political
Party"?

Do you *really* think that such a thing would or could be "taken
seriously"? The media would have a field day trotting out every possible
pun they can think of, describing any manifesto as a "perverts charter"
and so on and so forth.

And I do not agree that the main parties are "so merged" either. For
instance whilst the Tories and Labour are squabbling over policies or
claiming to be the "toughest on crime" etc, the Lib Dems are quietly
re-establishing their credibilty as more and more people get
disillusioned with the other two and, as we've already seen, Charles
Kennedy agrees that these proposals are ridiculous.

> There is no doubt at all in my mind the average chap in the street
> values his freedoms and liberties.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that the average chap or chapess in
the street doesn't even *THINK* about his freedoms and liberties,
otherwise people would not be agreeing with proposals for ID cards,
internment of terrorist suspects or many other such things and they most
certainly wouldn't trot out the tired old rhetoric of "if you have
nothing to hide, you don't need to worry">

Only people who have *not* thought about what their freedoms and
liberties actually *MEAN* could be so blase about such issues.

We'd probably have more success if we proposed a party with compusory
flogging for all offenders!

Cheers,
Graham.


SnowdropExplodes, 04 Nov 2005 17:01:12

--- graham wrote:

>
>
> flagoftheunion@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > I can’t help feeling to fight the proposed bill
> from a bdsm stand
> > point is a total waste of time and resource. The
> government will
> > simply not take us seriously.
>
> As has been discussed before, this is not what we're
> doing. Yes, many of
> the people on this list are BDSMers, but there are
> people from all sorts
> of other groups too, BDSM is just one string to the
> bow.
>

I'd just like to add to this point, that my letter to
my MP, which received the very positive response that
I posted here a while back, specifically made a case
for legal recognition and decriminalisation of BDSM,
as well as expressing my opposition to the home office
proposals on "extreme pornography". Admittedly, my
MP is not a Labour MP (and therefore a member of the
opposition, not of the government), but it shows that
people in parliament will take us seriously and that
we can argue this case from both the BDSM angle and
the civil liberties angle.

Arguing the BDSM angle I think does mean arguing that
the current law is wrong and needs changing: that is,
it means specifically to say that BDSM should be
decriminalised. I think we should use that and do
it. Roll on the backlash!

Ta,
SnowdropExplodes





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guy, 04 Nov 2005 17:12:23

>
> I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the same place the gay community was 50 years ago.
>
> Many other countries have recognised BDSM as a sexuality, it is about time the UK did too.
>
> And sexual discrimination (which is what this bill is really about) is illegal and unjust.
>
> Av8r
>
If I thought this were just about defending the BDSM community I would be
househunting abroad already, we simply cannot win against such odds on our own.
I must fight, because it is such a bad law that it would be a disaster for all
our society if pushed through.

The implicit consequences of this legislation will be to terrify us all into
only displaying the most inoffensive images on our sites, have us burn any
videos, books or magazines with potentially rude images, etc. or burn them for
us.

I surmise, on past trends and those happening now in the US, as that objective
begins to be achieved to start on text-only sites and books with much the same
objective.

There may well be attempts to smear non-mainstream-faiths, religions and
political groups who ally themselves with us in any way as being in league with
the nasty pornographers. Cf Pastor Niemoller's lament.

Along the way we will have hundreds of people committing suicide, thousands
financially ruined, and the climate of fear of a Police State achieved, all to
no good purpose.

Plus the corruption of the Police themselves as they realise they can destroy
anybody they want, for religeous, righteous or financial reasons (cf the Met
Obscene Publications Squad, etc.); just by raiding them - even if they find
nothing, people will still be destroyed.

The end result will be that the only kinds of erotica easily available to the
general population will be "Janet & John" vanilla "18" (probably drawn far more
tightly than today), big-business pornography and the nasty criminal stuff. The
amateur, hobby, semi-pro and small-business sites, etc. will be driven
underground or abroad.

The parallel is the era of alcohol prohibition in the USA, where the end result
was to debase the product, bring the law into contempt and corrupt the police
and local authorities. But people who wanted it could always get booze.

People looking for erotica will reject the "Janet and John" version, because
people instinctively know it is not the whole story, and look for more; so they
will find the nasty, exploitative and dangerous stuff and take their cues from
that, when if they had been able to see the whole range available they would
recognise the loonies for what they are ...

End result; far more alienation in society, fewer caring, sharing people like
us who know themselves thoroughly and care. More rapes, sex-assaults, abuse,
violence, etc. in society.

That will then fuel further repressive measures.

Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


SnowdropExplodes, 04 Nov 2005 17:24:26

> I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the
> same place the gay community was 50 years ago.

With one exception: they allow sadists in the
military, where they become Sergeant Majors (which
rank has the appropriate initials "SM" )

Ta,
SnowdropExplodes



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Paul C. Dickie, 04 Nov 2005 17:29:50

In message <436B807A.1050505@affordable-leather.co.uk>, graham
wrote:
>flagoftheunion@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Now our three main political parties are so merged it time to
>> present a new party fighting from the platform of liberty. The
>> bdsm movement would provide the essential base for a party to
>> begin and from there with the right publicity we can draw in
>> vanilla membership. A political party will give us greater
>> access to the media and other advantages a pressure group doesn't.
>
>I'm sorry, but how can you argue on one hand that "to fight the proposed
>bill from a bdsm stand point is a total waste of time and resource. The
>government will simply not take us seriously" and, then, immediately
>afterwards, suggest starting what is effectively a BDSM based Political
>Party"?

To be called "UK-Whip", perhaps?

As long as the orange Robert Kilroy-Silk doesn't join, then we're
certain to be taken seriously. Aren't we?

Still, at least we'll not have to start a religion. It's a lot of hard
work being a Pope...

--
< Paul >


Paul C. Dickie, 04 Nov 2005 17:40:54

In message <20051104170735.40993.qmail@web86202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, -
OJT- wrote:
>
>> I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the
>> same place the gay community was 50 years ago.
>
>With one exception: they allow sadists in the
>military, where they become Sergeant Majors (which
>rank has the appropriate initials "SM" )

You have overlooked the rank rank of RSM, or Real Sado-Masochist.

--
< Paul >


clare, 04 Nov 2005 19:03:07

Silver,

We had that debate on these boards a few weeks ago. Some people wanted to run the argument from an bdsm rights point of view and other people wanted to run a freedom of speech, anti-internet censorship angle.

The way it has worked out is that people are running with the angles they feel are strongest. There is no one single "Backlash" campaign position. A lot of people on the boards agree with you and are talking to people, writing and campaigning on the freedom of speech issues.

The issues that you raise may not necessarily appear in the current postings, but people are very aware of them and are acting on them.

Regards

Clare


Author wrote:
> I can’t help feeling to fight the proposed bill from a bdsm stand point is a total waste of time and resource. The government will simply not take us seriously. The authorities will simply say to themselves what do you expect these perverted people are the very group we need to save from themselves. They may even find it heartening to realise that there are so many pervs out there to covert to good fresh pure thoughts.
> We are looking at the thin edge of the wedge because the proposed bill affects us directly, but it doesn’t take much looking around to see our freedom and liberties are being legislated away by the month.
> Yes, I agree the proposed bill is an extremely serious matter so much so I am happy to make a small personal pledge to help finance a fighting fund and I confident a great many of us in the community will. However, what concerns me is ‘backlash’ the vehicle we should be doing this from? We need to fight from a wider angle to captivate and encourage ordinary folk (vanillas) if the movement is to have credibility.
> Now our three main political parties are so merged it time to present a new party fighting from the platform of liberty. The bdsm movement would provide the essential base for a party to begin and from there with the right publicity we can draw in vanilla membership. A political party will give us greater access to the media and other advantages a pressure group doesn't.
> A political party will allow us to fight this bill and others without any witch-hunt taken against any individual because of his/her sexuality.
> There is no doubt at all in my mind the average chap in the street values his freedoms and liberties. There is a huge resource of people out there we need to tap and bring onside. It is wrong to assume the government will not take notice of a small political party they do.
> Silver
>
>


zak, 04 Nov 2005 20:09:10

Original Message:
-----------------
Paul C. Dickie pcd-sm@bozzie.demon.co.uk, 04 Nov 2005 20:09:10



Still, at least we'll not have to start a religion. It's a lot of hard
work being a Pope...

--
< Paul >

Yeah, but think of the perks! If today's papers are to be believed, the
current one gets
Prada shoes, Versace frocks and designer shades on top of all the
racketerring money and
all the choirboys he can eat...!


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zak, 04 Nov 2005 20:13:56

Original Message:
-----------------
av8r0344@hotmail.com, 04 Nov 2005 20:13:56




Author wrote:
> I can’t help feeling to fight the proposed bill from a bdsm stand point
is a total waste
of time and resource. The government will simply not take us seriously. The
authorities
will simply say to themselves what do you expect these perverted people are
the very group
we need to save from themselves. They may even find it heartening to
realise that there
are so many pervs out there to covert to good fresh pure thoughts.


I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the same place the gay
community was 50
years ago.

Many other countries have recognised BDSM as a sexuality, it is about time
the UK did too.

And sexual discrimination (which is what this bill is really about) is
illegal and unjust.

Av8r

I think the bill is less about sexual discrimination than it's using a
stigmatized sexual
preference to enforce greater controls on everyone. And another useful
discussion topic
might be: there's really no such thing as a 'normal' sexuality. Far more
people than
identify themselves as into BDSM have experimented with, or regularly like
to engage in,
activities like mild spanking, tying up a partner with silk scarves,
roleplay, etc. It's
free choice, free thought and fantasy that's under attack here.

z





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Paul Tavener, 04 Nov 2005 23:05:40

Slightly off topic but following the theme of the post below:

http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/R18_internet_mailorder/

A good response to this petition might make the Government think twice about any further restrictions on sexuality including BDSM

Author wrote:
> >
> > I disagree. The BDSM community is in exactly the same place the gay community was 50 years ago.
> >
> > Many other countries have recognised BDSM as a sexuality, it is about time the UK did too.
> >
> > And sexual discrimination (which is what this bill is really about) is illegal and unjust.
> >
> > Av8r
> >
> If I thought this were just about defending the BDSM community I would be
> househunting abroad already, we simply cannot win against such odds on our own.
> I must fight, because it is such a bad law that it would be a disaster for all
> our society if pushed through.
> The implicit consequences of this legislation will be to terrify us all into
> only displaying the most inoffensive images on our sites, have us burn any
> videos, books or magazines with potentially rude images, etc. or burn them for
> us.
> I surmise, on past trends and those happening now in the US, as that objective
> begins to be achieved to start on text-only sites and books with much the same
> objective.
> There may well be attempts to smear non-mainstream-faiths, religions and
> political groups who ally themselves with us in any way as being in league with
> the nasty pornographers. Cf Pastor Niemoller's lament.
> Along the way we will have hundreds of people committing suicide, thousands
> financially ruined, and the climate of fear of a Police State achieved, all to
> no good purpose.
> Plus the corruption of the Police themselves as they realise they can destroy
> anybody they want, for religeous, righteous or financial reasons (cf the Met
> Obscene Publications Squad, etc.); just by raiding them - even if they find
> nothing, people will still be destroyed.
> The end result will be that the only kinds of erotica easily available to the
> general population will be "Janet & John" vanilla "18" (probably drawn far more
> tightly than today), big-business pornography and the nasty criminal stuff. The
> amateur, hobby, semi-pro and small-business sites, etc. will be driven
> underground or abroad.
> The parallel is the era of alcohol prohibition in the USA, where the end result
> was to debase the product, bring the law into contempt and corrupt the police
> and local authorities. But people who wanted it could always get booze.
> People looking for erotica will reject the "Janet and John" version, because
> people instinctively know it is not the whole story, and look for more; so they
> will find the nasty, exploitative and dangerous stuff and take their cues from
> that, when if they had been able to see the whole range available they would
> recognise the loonies for what they are ...
> End result; far more alienation in society, fewer caring, sharing people like
> us who know themselves thoroughly and care. More rapes, sex-assaults, abuse,
> violence, etc. in society.
> That will then fuel further repressive measures.
> Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100