How many of us are there?
adrian, 03 Nov 2005 23:51:46
with apologies to those of us here like Paul Tavener & Nigel who
aren't 'of us' in this respect.
Manniq has posted the figure of 4 million. I also note the Durex survey.
I asked this question on the research group but it might get some
other answers here.
I'm looking for any sort of idea of:
...how many people in Britain are interested in BDSM or similar things
...how many (in UK or worldwide) look at BDSM porn.
There are stats compiled by the anti-porn lobby that are trotted out
nearly everywhere to show how big the porn market is and other things.
They seem very suspect and some of them are ludicrously meaningless,
but they show the size of the market (for porn in general). Look on
backlash-research for the details.
The bigger the better, I say. For three reasons:
1) If (say) 20 million worldwide were reliably estimated to look at
'extreme porn', and of those say a hundred worldwide were found guilty
of crimes where porn was implicated, that proportion (0.0005%) is
quite interesting. For one thing, it's something like the proportion
of the UK Islamic community who have been suicide bombers. I can't be
very different from the proportion of doctors who are serial killers.
Do we see across-the-board Government sanctions against Muslims, or
doctors, on the basis of the one in 200,000 that it's aimed at?
2) Four million of the 40 million or so adults in the UK is a pretty
big gap in the ranks of that society that Goggins believes will find
the material abhorrent. For a government to enforce the moral values
of society, it ought to be pretty clear that that society actually
holds those values.
3) We vote.
adrian, 04 Nov 2005 00:34:11
>I can't be very different from the proportion of doctors who are serial killers.
Just in case the thought police are watching, this should have been 'IT can't be very different...'
demolitionred, 04 Nov 2005 07:56:07
The Sun did a survey of readers, in which over 50 pct of those surveyed expressed an interest in Kinky Sex ( I can't find the article again), the Kinsey report said 12 pct (6 pct into the hard stuff..hence the 4 million).
adrian, 04 Nov 2005 09:11:03
On 04/11/05, demolitionred@yahoo.com wrote:
> The Sun did a survey of readers, in which over 50 pct of those surveyed expressed an interest in Kinky Sex ( I can't find the article again), the Kinsey report said 12 pct (6 pct into the hard stuff..hence the 4 million).
That's what I needed, thanks
John Thow, 04 Nov 2005 09:35:43
Adrian wrote:
> On 04/11/05, demolitionred@yahoo.com wrote:
>> The Sun did a survey of readers, in which over 50 pct of those surveyed expressed an interest in Kinky Sex ( I can't find the article again), the Kinsey report said 12 pct (6 pct into the hard stuff..hence the 4 million).
> That's what I needed, thanks
>
>
>
>
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I think it may be wider than that.
I'm not sure if any studies have been done into bdsm material but there
is research which shows that in a population of heterosexual men, 25%
are more aroused by homosexual porn than heterosexual porn. This is way
above most estimates of the extent of homosexuality in the community,
perhaps around 5%.
Exactly the same has been found for arousal patterns to nude pictures of
prepubescent girls (under 12) - 25% of a 'normal' male population found
these images more arousing than adult female nude pics. The number of
men who could be considered true paedophiles is nowhere near 25%. In
Operation Ore, only 1% of those arrested were suspected of actual child
abuse.
If this legislation goes ahead, it will not be lifestyle BDSMers who are
affected. They will know the legislation in detail and if they choose to
break the law, will know how to mimimise the risks of being caught. The
people who will turn up in court will be the curious, or those with
family or booze problems, or teenagers and college students, the
careless, feckless or porn addicts.
JT
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John Thow, 04 Nov 2005 10:32:52
>
> If this legislation goes ahead, it will not be lifestyle BDSMers who are
> affected. They will know the legislation in detail and if they choose to
> break the law, will know how to mimimise the risks of being caught. The
> people who will turn up in court will be the curious, or those with
> family or booze problems, or teenagers and college students, the
> careless, feckless or porn addicts.
>
> JT
"Whitehead, of Kent Road, Old Town, had 99 pictures of youngsters on his
computer when police searched his home earlier this month.
Two of the images fell into the highest category of abuse, while 23 were
considered level four, which is the next step down.
Prosecuting, Anna Humphries said: "Mr Whitehead is suffering from
depression and he is an alcoholic.
"He has, on a number of occasions, tried to end his life.
"It was after one such occasion that Mr Whitehead confessed to hospital
staff that he had downloaded the images."
Staff at the Great Western Hospital then tipped the police off, who
searched Whitehead's house and arrested him on October 25."
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/swindon/news/SWINDON_NEWS10.html
Is this really such a serious offence that clinical staff feel able to
breach patient confidentiality in this way? Will they feel the same
about shopping a consumer of "violent porn"? Is this really how we want
our society to develop?
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adrian, 04 Nov 2005 10:46:30
On 04/11/05, John Thow wrote:
>there is research which shows that in a population of heterosexual men, 25%
> are more aroused by homosexual porn than heterosexual porn...
Can you find me a reference for this?
Manniq, 04 Nov 2005 11:01:21
You need to be careful how you ask this question.
I have been involved in market research in which people have just fibbed about what they do. Norming behaviour. They were asked if they had ever booked a holiday via a particular medium. They all said no.
The funny thing was: every individual present had been selected on the basis of that method of holiday booking. Basically, it was embarrassing, and they didn't want to own up to it in public.
Same with the bdsm world. If you take the strict extreme porn definition, that probably omits quite a few of us here. I am not a very visual person, preferring my porn in literary form - and then the subjects I opt for are control rather than physical punishment. But if you widen out the definition to the list of material listed yesterday, then you draw the net VERY wide indeed.
So what then matters is what question you ask.
If you do a 'Sun says survey' along the lines of "Do you believe that perverts should be allowed to look at any images they wish, no matter how sick?" then you will find 99% of society wants this proposal.
If you ask people: do you believe that the state should censor images of bondage where there is no image of harm involved and the action takes place between consenting adults, you will get a very different answer.
The other statistic that I think you need to hammer - and in this respect, Amelie's case is really vital - is the number of people who could be caught by the proposal.
1. Have you ever looked at any of the following material on your pc? (list as quoted)
2. Are you certain that you have never visited a site from which even one image of the sort listed could have downloaded onto your pc?
3. Have you ever been spammed with an image that is in any of the categories listed?
4. Are you aware that under government proposals, failure to delete any of these images completely could open you to criminal charges and entry on the Sex Offendrs' Register?
Are you aware that ordinary deletyion would not remove these images and that the police have advised that having once had any of these images on your pc, the only sure way to remove them is to destroy your hard drive?
Hey presto! A questionnaire - and the guts of an article. If anyone wishes to write it up, then please feel free to borrow.
Regards,
M
Author wrote:
> with apologies to those of us here like Paul Tavener & Nigel who
> aren't 'of us' in this respect.
> Manniq has posted the figure of 4 million. I also note the Durex survey.
> I asked this question on the research group but it might get some
> other answers here.
> I'm looking for any sort of idea of:
> ...how many people in Britain are interested in BDSM or similar things
> ...how many (in UK or worldwide) look at BDSM porn.
> There are stats compiled by the anti-porn lobby that are trotted out
> nearly everywhere to show how big the porn market is and other things.
> They seem very suspect and some of them are ludicrously meaningless,
> but they show the size of the market (for porn in general). Look on
> backlash-research for the details.
> The bigger the better, I say. For three reasons:
> 1) If (say) 20 million worldwide were reliably estimated to look at
> 'extreme porn', and of those say a hundred worldwide were found guilty
> of crimes where porn was implicated, that proportion (0.0005%) is
> quite interesting. For one thing, it's something like the proportion
> of the UK Islamic community who have been suicide bombers. I can't be
> very different from the proportion of doctors who are serial killers.
> Do we see across-the-board Government sanctions against Muslims, or
> doctors, on the basis of the one in 200,000 that it's aimed at?
> 2) Four million of the 40 million or so adults in the UK is a pretty
> big gap in the ranks of that society that Goggins believes will find
> the material abhorrent. For a government to enforce the moral values
> of society, it ought to be pretty clear that that society actually
> holds those values.
> 3) We vote.
Manniq, 04 Nov 2005 11:03:46
Kinsey is highly dodgy as a source for this stuff - and there are a lot of papers out there debunking him.
However, given the extent to which even mild bondage gets advised in most Men's and Women's mags, my guess is that if you widen bdsm to the activities included in the list, you get a figure far in excess of 4 million.
Regards,
M
Author wrote:
> The Sun did a survey of readers, in which over 50 pct of those surveyed expressed an interest in Kinky Sex ( I can't find the article again), the Kinsey report said 12 pct (6 pct into the hard stuff..hence the 4 million).
AV8R, 04 Nov 2005 11:07:00
I dont think Kinsey can be dismissed completely either, but clearly the more sources we have the better
Av8r
Author wrote:
> Kinsey is highly dodgy as a source for this stuff - and there are a lot of papers out there debunking him.
> However, given the extent to which even mild bondage gets advised in most Men's and Women's mags, my guess is that if you widen bdsm to the activities included in the list, you get a figure far in excess of 4 million.
> Regards,
> M
> Author wrote:
> > The Sun did a survey of readers, in which over 50 pct of those surveyed expressed an interest in Kinky Sex ( I can't find the article again), the Kinsey report said 12 pct (6 pct into the hard stuff..hence the 4 million).
John Thow, 04 Nov 2005 11:44:14
Adrian wrote:
> On 04/11/05, John Thow wrote:
>> there is research which shows that in a population of heterosexual men, 25%
>> are more aroused by homosexual porn than heterosexual porn...
>
> Can you find me a reference for this?
"Patterns of sexual arousal and history in a normal sample of young men
Terrel L. Templeman1 and Ray D. Stinnett2"
http://www.springerlink.com/(rc0vri555gxwa4ry1r302n55)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,3,11;journal,29,138;linkingpublicationresults,1:401587,1
"Self-reported sexual interest in children: Sex differences and
psychosocial correlates in a university sample "
http://www.mhamic.org/sources/smiljanich&briere.htm
"Adams studied a group of white heterosexual men, 35 of whom were
classified as homophobic and 29, as nonhomophobic. Homophobia was
defined as a negative emotional reaction (e.g., fear, anxiety, anger,
discomfort) to homosexuality and was measured by a self-report scale
called the Index of Homophobia (a sample item is, "I would feel nervous
being in a group of homosexuals"). All the men reported being entirely
heterosexual in both arousal and experience.
Each participant was shown how to put on a penile strain gauge,
which measures the circumference of the penis. After the gauge was in
place, each man was shown three 4-minute videotapes depicting
heterosexual activity, male homosexual activity, and lesbian activity.
(The latter tape was included because, interestingly, heterosexual men
find lesbian sex highly arousing; it distinguishes better between
heterosexual and homosexual men than do other stimuli.)
The researchers found that the homophobic men showed a
significant increase in penile circumference to the male homosexual
video whereas the non-homophobic men did not. "In the homophobic group,
20% showed no significant tumescence, 26% showed moderate tumescence,
and 54% showed definite tumescence to the homosexual video; the
corresponding percentages in the nonhomophobic group were 66%, 10%, and
24%, respectively" (p. 443).
[moderate tumescence defined as increase in penile circumference
of 6-12 mm; definite tumescence defined as more than 12 mm increase.]
There are several possible explanations. One is that homophobia
is an attempt to repress or deny one's own homosexual impulses. Another
is that homosexual stimuli cause anxiety in nonhomophobic men, and
anxiety enhances arousal and erection. Further research is needed to
clarify the results and to answer questions such as whether these
results would generalize to homophobic women and whether homophobic men
have poorer heterosexual adjustment than do nonhomophobic men.
Adams, H. E., Wright, L. W., & Lohr, B. A, (1996). Is homophobia
associated with homosexual arousal? Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 105,
440-445.
=================
Note that in the homophobic group the rate of "definite tumescence" was
54% and in the non-homophobic group still 24%
There was another study that showed almost the same but I can't locate
this for now.
The message to me is that many,many men are 'turned on' by erotica which
is not their sexual preference, or which they would even like to try
in real life.
The problem arises because we try to pigeonhole people in terms of their
sexual taste, in ways that would seem ridiculous if applied to our taste
in clothes or food and drink.
JT
JT
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Graham Marsden, 04 Nov 2005 12:50:10
John Thow wrote:
> "Whitehead, of Kent Road, Old Town, had 99 pictures of youngsters on his
> computer when police searched his home earlier this month.
Publishing his address like this is the equivalent of painting a big
target on it saying "paedophile lives here".
> Magistrates studied the images in order to decide how serious the offence
> was.
And, yet again, what makes them such paragons of moral virtue that
*they* aren't going to be "corrupted" by "studying" these images??
> They concluded that Whitehead's crime was so severe that he should be
> sentenced at the Crown court where they have greater powers of
> punishment
>
> The defendant's solicitor, David Gostling, did not oppose the decision.
Why on earth not? Unless he hopes that he's got a better chance of
getting his client off with a jury trial?
Cheers,
Graham.
Amelie, 04 Nov 2005 13:38:05
silver says anyone buying a new hard drive will soon get funny looks, like
buying condoms in a chemists - and we should invest in hard drive
suppliers.... Amelie
----- Original Message -----
, 04 Nov 2005 13:38:05
To:
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:01 AM
> You need to be careful how you ask this question.
>
> I have been involved in market research in which people have just fibbed
> about what they do. Norming behaviour. They were asked if they had ever
> booked a holiday via a particular medium. They all said no.
>
> The funny thing was: every individual present had been selected on the
> basis of that method of holiday booking. Basically, it was embarrassing,
> and they didn't want to own up to it in public.
>
> Same with the bdsm world. If you take the strict extreme porn definition,
> that probably omits quite a few of us here. I am not a very visual
> person, preferring my porn in literary form - and then the subjects I opt
> for are control rather than physical punishment. But if you widen out the
> definition to the list of material listed yesterday, then you draw the net
> VERY wide indeed.
>
> So what then matters is what question you ask.
>
> If you do a 'Sun says survey' along the lines of "Do you believe that
> perverts should be allowed to look at any images they wish, no matter how
> sick?" then you will find 99% of society wants this proposal.
>
> If you ask people: do you believe that the state should censor images of
> bondage where there is no image of harm involved and the action takes
> place between consenting adults, you will get a very different answer.
>
> The other statistic that I think you need to hammer - and in this respect,
> Amelie's case is really vital - is the number of people who could be
> caught by the proposal.
>
> 1. Have you ever looked at any of the following material on your pc?
> (list as quoted)
>
> 2. Are you certain that you have never visited a site from which even
> one image of the sort listed could have downloaded onto your pc?
>
> 3. Have you ever been spammed with an image that is in any of the
> categories listed?
>
> 4. Are you aware that under government proposals, failure to delete any
> of these images completely could open you to criminal charges and entry on
> the Sex Offendrs' Register?
>
> Are you aware that ordinary deletyion would not remove these images and
> that the police have advised that having once had any of these images on
> your pc, the only sure way to remove them is to destroy your hard drive?
>
> Hey presto! A questionnaire - and the guts of an article. If anyone
> wishes to write it up, then please feel free to borrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> M
>
> Author wrote:
>> with apologies to those of us here like Paul Tavener & Nigel who
>> aren't 'of us' in this respect.
>> Manniq has posted the figure of 4 million. I also note the Durex survey.
>> I asked this question on the research group but it might get some
>> other answers here.
>> I'm looking for any sort of idea of:
>> ...how many people in Britain are interested in BDSM or similar things
>> ...how many (in UK or worldwide) look at BDSM porn.
>> There are stats compiled by the anti-porn lobby that are trotted out
>> nearly everywhere to show how big the porn market is and other things.
>> They seem very suspect and some of them are ludicrously meaningless,
>> but they show the size of the market (for porn in general). Look on
>> backlash-research for the details.
>> The bigger the better, I say. For three reasons:
>> 1) If (say) 20 million worldwide were reliably estimated to look at
>> 'extreme porn', and of those say a hundred worldwide were found guilty
>> of crimes where porn was implicated, that proportion (0.0005%) is
>> quite interesting. For one thing, it's something like the proportion
>> of the UK Islamic community who have been suicide bombers. I can't be
>> very different from the proportion of doctors who are serial killers.
>> Do we see across-the-board Government sanctions against Muslims, or
>> doctors, on the basis of the one in 200,000 that it's aimed at?
>> 2) Four million of the 40 million or so adults in the UK is a pretty
>> big gap in the ranks of that society that Goggins believes will find
>> the material abhorrent. For a government to enforce the moral values
>> of society, it ought to be pretty clear that that society actually
>> holds those values.
>> 3) We vote.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
> To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
> Report abuse
> http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2980
>
>
Amelie, 04 Nov 2005 14:00:08
Fewer than 1 percent of survey respondents-for example, 12 people out of
7076 Dutch adults in one recent survey (Sandfort & others, 2001)-reported
being actively bisexual.
Studies indicate that self-described "bisexual" men respond like homosexual
men; they typically have genital arousal to same-sex erotic stimuli [Rieger
& others, 2005].
People often struggle with their sexual orientation. They may at first try
to ignore or deny their desires, hoping they will go away. But they don't.
Then they may try to change, through psychotherapy, willpower, or prayer.
But the feelings typically persist, as do those of heterosexual people-who
are similarly incapable of becoming homosexual Haldeman, 1994, 2001; Myers &
Scanzoni, 2005
Most of today's psychologists view sexual orientation as neither willfully
chosen nor willfully changed. Sexual orientation in some ways is like
handedness: Most people are one way, some the other. A very few are truly
ambidextrous. Regardless, the way one is endures.
Women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially
more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000; Peplau & Garnets,
2000). Men's lesser sexual variability is apparent in many ways, notes Roy
Baumeister (2000). Across time, across cultures, across situations, and
across differing levels of education, religiosity, and peer influence, adult
women's sexual drive and interests are more flexible and varying than are
adult men's. Women, more than men, for example, prefer to alternate periods
of high sexual activity with periods of almost none, and are somewhat more
likely than men to feel bisexual attractions. Baumeister calls this
phenomenon the gender difference in "erotic plasticity."
Hope this helps, Amelie
----- Original Message -----
"Adrian"
, 04 Nov 2005 14:00:08
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 10:44 AM
On 04/11/05, John Thow wrote:
>there is research which shows that in a population of heterosexual men, 25%
> are more aroused by homosexual porn than heterosexual porn...
Can you find me a reference for this?
--
If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
Report abuse
http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2976
Morgarth, 04 Nov 2005 19:23:26
Graham Marsden wrote:
> John Thow wrote:
> > Magistrates studied the images in order to decide how serious the offence
> > was.
> And, yet again, what makes them such paragons of moral virtue that
> *they* aren't going to be "corrupted" by "studying" these images??
(1) The arguments in relation to pictures of those under the are of 18 not that they are corrupting the viewer but that the continued circulation does other harm to the young people depicted in the image.
(2) The review of image evidence by the court is in camera, and unlike most evidence, it is not seen or even verbally described to the public.
(3) The standard of justice administered would be worse if those passing sentense relied on some unknown and un-questioned technician's classification of the evidence. Failure of magistrates and judges to question evidence is the behaviour of a police state.
> > They concluded that Whitehead's crime was so severe that he should be
> > sentenced at the Crown court where they have greater powers of
> > punishment
> >
> > The defendant's solicitor, David Gostling, did not oppose the decision.
> Why on earth not? Unless he hopes that he's got a better chance of
> getting his client off with a jury trial?
(1) If it is a reference to the Crown Court for sentensing there is no question of a jury trial. He has already been found guilty.
(2) The sentensing guide-lines suggest that for possession of any category 4 and 5 images a custodial sentense of 6 months to 3 years is required. Most of which is out of the range available to magistrates.
(3) The Crown Court does not have to give a longer sentense - it could give a decision of only 6 months. Also a Crown Court Judge will be more used to sentensing "more serious" cases.
The solicitor may well think the Crown Court is likely to be more consistent and, therefore, may well deliverer a shorter sentense than the magistrates' maximum. He may also know when to keep quiet for fear of making things worse.
DAury, 04 Nov 2005 21:50:34
> I'm looking for any sort of idea of:
> ...how many people in Britain are interested in BDSM or similar things
>
> ...how many (in UK or worldwide) look at BDSM porn.
There was a program on Channel 4 in August covering British sexual
fantasies, the core data used was a 2004 survey of 13500 British
adults, a sample size large enough to be statisitically representative
of the 45 million UK adults. The questionaire was anonymous and
covered all ages, sexual orientations, occupations and religions, it
was professionally conducted by the pollsters Yougov in collaboration
with the show's presenter, the psychologist Brett Kahr. Unfortunatley
only brief results were quoted such as 36% of women have
submissive fantasies and 71% of British adults regularly use
pornography with 46% of these being female.
There was obviously much more detailed info, as they mentioned that
the survey showed that people with complex sexual fantasies nearly
allways came from tolerant and loving family backgrounds, so the
questionaire must have been quite comprehensive.
I contacted the production company, Tiger Aspect, twice to see if the
results of the survey had, or were going to be, published, but neither
of my two emails elicited any response.
It's almost certain that the survey would have the details on BDSM
prevalence that you require.
Keith
SnowdropExplodes, 05 Nov 2005 00:41:31
--- KeithD wrote:
> > I'm looking for any sort of idea of:
> > ...how many people in Britain are interested in
> BDSM or similar things
> >
> > ...how many (in UK or worldwide) look at BDSM
> porn.
>
> There was a program on Channel 4 in August covering
> British sexual
> fantasies, the core data used was a 2004 survey of
> 13500 British
> adults, a sample size large enough to be
> statisitically representative
> of the 45 million UK adults. The questionaire was
> anonymous and
> covered all ages, sexual orientations, occupations
> and religions, it
> was professionally conducted by the pollsters Yougov
> in collaboration
> with the show's presenter, the psychologist Brett
> Kahr. Unfortunatley
> only brief results were quoted such as 36% of women
> have
> submissive fantasies and 71% of British adults
> regularly use
> pornography with 46% of these being female.
interesting...
36% of 46% of 71% (that is, the probability that an
adult is a porn user, female, and has submissive
fantasies) is around 12% based on these figures.
Admittedly, it's not good statistical analysis, and at
best only a very crude estimate, but could that figure
be useful in campaigning?
Ta,
SnowdropExplodes
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