Thread

The Christian Dimension

Manniq, 03 Nov 2005 10:18:47

samantha, 03 Nov 2005 10:33:59

Right im not going to throw in brickbats and condem all religion as bunk...
mainly as it was only 6 months before I got involved in bdsm activitys that
I was baptised in a belivers baptism.

Im still a christian and alot of my friends around me... some of them scene
and some not.

Most know about Backlash in one way or another (all from different angles)
and I I got funny looks when i mentioned the name but as soon as i explained
things they supported what *we* are doing to fight the paper.

The ones that use some kind of religious argument to fight something often
do so as they have no other valid arguments...... the christian debate comes
up again and there are enougth biblical references to non-consentual
activitys such as rape and SM that if the bible was turnined into a movie
alot of the scenes wouldnt be able to be shown at all...... we would have a
censored version of the bible

jenis

ps... who helped give us flagellation.. the good ole christians x

manniq@hotmail.com, 03 Nov 2005 10:33:59

>Subject: [backlash] The Christian Dimension
>
>It might be about time we tackled this. Without too many people just
>throwing in brickbats and condemning all religion as bunk!
>
>The following might be a starter for 10:
>
>http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=2003
>
>I am fascinated by Mr Goggins: although he talks Christianity, I would not
>say he exhibits much of it in his conduct. A pharisee, rather than a true
>believer!
>
>Anyway, I think that we need to think about the Christian dimension for a
>couple of reasons. Fiurst, there are a number of people on this board and
>elsewhere in the bds,m community who see no inconsistency between their
>activity and their religion. I am not especially religious...but I was
>brung up (liberal) catholic - and manage to lapse on a regular basis.
>
>I suspect that there would be many on the more liberal wing of the church
>who are as opposed to this proposal as they are to the religious hatred
>bill.
>
>Second, I think it is a good story to run with. I think if people in
>general realised just how in hock to fundamentalism this government was,
>there might be a broader outcry against a lot of government thinking. AT
>present the issue bubbles along, with references occasionally to Ruth Kelly
>and her Opus Dei membership.
>
>Perhaps it is time the public realised just how 'christian' this cabinet
>really is.
>
>Regards,
>
>M
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
>visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
>To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
>Report abuse
>http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2891

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Paul C. Dickie, 03 Nov 2005 12:06:19

In message <4930266.1131013124517.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com
>, manniq@hotmail.com wrote:
>It might be about time we tackled this. Without too many people just throwing
>in brickbats and condemning all religion as bunk!
>
>The following might be a starter for 10:
>
>http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=2003
>
>I am fascinated by Mr Goggins: although he talks Christianity, I would not say
>he exhibits much of it in his conduct. A pharisee, rather than a true believer!

Indeed. in particular, he doth seem to have forgotten Matthew 7, vv1-5:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with
what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote
out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.

>Second, I think it is a good story to run with. I think if people in general
>realised just how in hock to fundamentalism this government was, there might be
>a broader outcry against a lot of government thinking. AT present the issue
>bubbles along, with references occasionally to Ruth Kelly and her Opus Dei
>membership.
>
>Perhaps it is time the public realised just how 'christian' this cabinet really
>is.

The "Christian Right Wing" is no more a fundamentalist form of
Christianity than the Taliban or Al Queda are fundamentalist forms of
Islam. If they *were*, they'd surely not have abolished corporal
punishment for children:

Proverbs 13:24
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him
chasteneth him betimes.

And also:

Proverbs 13:5
A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh
to shame.

... which may have some resonance when one considers the claims of WMD
in Iraq.

--
< Paul >

Manniq, 03 Nov 2005 12:09:58

Two thoughts.

First, another question for the Home Office. What is likely to be their attitude to religious self-mortification?

I refer individuals to the following link:

http://www.odan.org/corporal_mortification.htm

At least one member of government - the Education secretary - is believed to be a member of this organisation. Given the supposed harmful effects of self-mortification, should we not demand to know whether she self-flagellates and whether she wears a cilice. Just look at the picture (but do not do so in a sexual context!!!).

There is a serious additional point here - and that is that the line between sex and religion is not as clear as christian bigot, Paul Goggins seems likely to wish to make.

I would hope that he is aware of ecstatic religions: there is a strong ecstatic tradition within the catholic church and various christian sects have followed ecstatic practices.

What are these, if not pseudo-sexual?

Regards,

M

Author wrote:
> Right im not going to throw in brickbats and condem all religion as bunk...
> mainly as it was only 6 months before I got involved in bdsm activitys that
> I was baptised in a belivers baptism.
> Im still a christian and alot of my friends around me... some of them scene
> and some not.
> Most know about Backlash in one way or another (all from different angles)
> and I I got funny looks when i mentioned the name but as soon as i explained
> things they supported what *we* are doing to fight the paper.
> The ones that use some kind of religious argument to fight something often
> do so as they have no other valid arguments...... the christian debate comes
> up again and there are enougth biblical references to non-consentual
> activitys such as rape and SM that if the bible was turnined into a movie
> alot of the scenes wouldnt be able to be shown at all...... we would have a
> censored version of the bible
> jenis
> ps... who helped give us flagellation.. the good ole christians x

m: manniq@hotmail.com, 03 Nov 2005 12:09:58

> >Subject: [backlash] The Christian Dimension
> >
> >It might be about time we tackled this. Without too many people just
> >throwing in brickbats and condemning all religion as bunk!
> >
> >The following might be a starter for 10:
> >
> >http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=2003
> >
> >I am fascinated by Mr Goggins: although he talks Christianity, I would not
> >say he exhibits much of it in his conduct. A pharisee, rather than a true
> >believer!
> >
> >Anyway, I think that we need to think about the Christian dimension for a
> >couple of reasons. Fiurst, there are a number of people on this board and
> >elsewhere in the bds,m community who see no inconsistency between their
> >activity and their religion. I am not especially religious...but I was
> >brung up (liberal) catholic - and manage to lapse on a regular basis.
> >
> >I suspect that there would be many on the more liberal wing of the church
> >who are as opposed to this proposal as they are to the religious hatred
> >bill.
> >
> >Second, I think it is a good story to run with. I think if people in
> >general realised just how in hock to fundamentalism this government was,
> >there might be a broader outcry against a lot of government thinking. AT
> >present the issue bubbles along, with references occasionally to Ruth Kelly
> >and her Opus Dei membership.
> >
> >Perhaps it is time the public realised just how 'christian' this cabinet
> >really is.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >M
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> >visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
> >
> >To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
> >
> >Report abuse
> >http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2891
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search!
> http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

Manniq, 03 Nov 2005 12:55:49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant

*** This message has been edited by Manniq on 03 Nov 2005 12:58:23 ***

zak, 03 Nov 2005 14:40:33

Original Message:
-----------------

manniq@hotmail.com, 03 Nov 2005 14:40:33

It might be about time we tackled this. Without too many people just
throwing in
brickbats and condemning all religion as bunk!

The following might be a starter for 10:

http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=2003

I am fascinated by Mr Goggins: although he talks Christianity, I would not
say he exhibits
much of it in his conduct. A pharisee, rather than a true believer!

Anyway, I think that we need to think about the Christian dimension for a
couple of
reasons. Fiurst, there are a number of people on this board and elsewhere
in the bds,m
community who see no inconsistency between their activity and their
religion. I am not
especially religious...but I was brung up (liberal) catholic - and manage
to lapse on a
regular basis.

It would also be a similar idea to discuss with representatives of other
supersti - um,
belief systems their take on the whole matter. There certainly are people
who happily
reconcile their hopes for the hereafter with regularly getting what they're
hereafter.

>Second, I think it is a good story to run with. I think if people in
general realised
>just how in hock to fundamentalism this government was, there might be a
broader outcry
>against a lot of government thinking. AT present the issue bubbles along,
with
>references occasionally to Ruth Kelly and her Opus Dei membership.

Perhaps it is time the public realised just how 'christian' this cabinet
really is.

Indeed. One's choice of superstition should be. of course, as private and
personal a
matter as one's choice of sexual position, but people who are in power over
others become
unfit to do their jobs when they let it be known that they hold a belief
system that
counts a percentage of their constituents (women, gay people, users of
contraception) as
less than

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adrian, 03 Nov 2005 23:05:39

While we're on Goggins & Opus Dei, I can't resist posting here this
extract that I couldn't resist posting to backlash-research (from
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/DOCS/OCJRC/OCJRC95/950725c.htm)

[list of features of the Authoritarian/Conservative personality]
\x{2022}Religious dogmatism

\x{2022}Right-wing political orientation (in Western society)

\x{2022}Insistence on strict rules and punishments

\x{2022}Ethnocentrism and intolerance of minority groups

\x{2022}Preference for conventional art, clothing, and institutions

\x{2022}Anti-hedonistic outlook (the tendency to regard pleasure,
particularly sexual, as necessarily bad)

\x{2022}Superstition and resistance to scientific progress (Boshier, 1983, p. 51)

The following is a series of statements or beliefs which can be
attributed to the individual who manifests a conservative personality:

\x{2022}Religion of a dogmatic and fundamental nature

\x{2022}Commitment to political organizations which favor maintenance of the
status quo (even by force)

\x{2022}Strict regulation of individual behavior

\x{2022}Militarism

\x{2022}Preference for people of one's own kind

\x{2022}Resistance to change

\x{2022}Conventional in art and clothing

\x{2022}Refusal to accept new ideas

\x{2022}Superstitious and fatalistic (Wilson, 1973)

[... the good bit comes directly after this list:]
Both Boshier and Wilson's descriptors of the conservative personality
were congruent with those of Nevitt Sandord, one of the original
authors of the work on authoritarianism. Sanford discussed in detail
the development of his research of the authoritarian personality, the
ramifications of the concept of authoritarianism and updated the
efforts from the time of the original work.

OFFENDERS

This section focuses on how the above conservative personality is
manifested in the offender. Duguid (1981b) has noted that offenders
possess many of the attributes of persons with authoritarian
personalities. "In their attitudes toward society, these
men\x{2014}inmates\x{2014}share many of the attributes of what has become known as
the 'authoritarian personality'" (p. 139).

Authoritarian tendencies akin to Adorno's definition of the
'authoritarian personality' a rigid conformity to social conventions
and adherence to whatever sexual, racial, or religious rules are
dominant in the group\x{2014}these reasoning deficiencies make most criminals
true conformists (Duguid, 1981a, p. 100).

Sanford (1973) also supported the idea that offenders are
significantly high in the area of authoritarianism:

BTW, this is from the Journal of the Oklahoma Criminal Justice
Research Consortium whose members are mainly from the Oklahoma
Department of Corrections.

demolitionred, 04 Nov 2005 08:04:42

The quakers are traditionally supportive of alternative lifestyles and many christians support freedoms...

SnowdropExplodes, 04 Nov 2005 14:32:42

--- demolitionred@yahoo.com wrote:

> The quakers are traditionally supportive of
> alternative lifestyles and many christians support
> freedoms...

We need only look at the stance of the new Archbishop
of York on homosexuality in the priesthood - namely
that gays are no better or worse than any other group
of people and so why shouldn't they be allowed to lead
a flock? I think the leadership of the C of E might
even be persuaded (if not all of them, then a
significant number of them, maybe even Rowan Williams
himself!)

Quakers are highly politically-active people; about
the *only* time they are ever quiet is during the one
hour of worship a week! I noticed that the "Friends"
periodical online version had a piece by Liz Longhurst
in it, and the responses were from people knowledgable
of how the BDSM society works (SSC etc) arguing
against restrictions on internet pornography. The
editor stated that he believed the proposals did not
affect consensual BDSM, which is of course an
incorrect view.

And of course, I spoke with my father who is a Quaker
and convinced him that ours is an okay cause, so that
is entirely possible.

Ta,
SnowdropExplodes

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