Something hopeful

SnowdropExplodes, 03 Nov 2005 02:06:57

Last weekend, I visited my parents and because I
mentioned about being dumb enough to volunteer to
organise a fundraising event (more on which by the end
of the week), the subject of the Backlash campaign
eventually had to be tackled.

My parents are a Quaker and a Christian, both quite
political and certainly firm of opinion. They do not
approve of pornography, and certainly not of the
"extreme" variety. Discussing the issue with them
was naturally quite a challenge for me.

So I approached it from the civil liberties angle, and
explained about the campaign's discussions - talking
over their objections to pornography in general, and
looking at the specific approach taken by the
consultation paper (i.e legislating on what people
look at rather than stopping the production of the
material).

The good news is, that they actually agreed with us
after I had explained it to them; even to the point of
raising the issue of "Thought Crime" without
prompting.

Now, as I say, my parents are quite political, firm of
view, and certainly regard the material we're talking
about as "yucky stuff".

Now, my parents are probably not strongly
representative of the population at large, but if
_they_ can be persuaded that the proposed legislation
is a Bad Thing, then just maybe there is the
possibility to build mainstream opposition by the time
the consultation makes its report.

I think we can win this battle, at least in the
public.

I noticed on the news they were talking about Labour
in danger of losing the next reading of the ID Cards
bill, if just three more MPs choose to rebel - and
once they've rebelled once, it's easier the second
time...

Ta,
SnowdropExplodes



___________________________________________________________
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guy, 03 Nov 2005 09:44:59

** Reply to message from -OJT- on Thu, 3 Nov
2005 02:06:57 +0000 (GMT)


> My parents are a Quaker and a Christian, both quite
> political and certainly firm of opinion.
>
I recall a friend of mine who was involved with the "Stop The 70s Tour"
campaign, who was asked to explain himself to a West Country Liberal
Constituency Committee, largely Quakers and Methodists. So he did, and their
response was broadly, "If you feel that strongly, why not dynamite the stands,
rather than **** about with garden forks?"

The point is, after fighting a world war against Fascism, as my father's
generation did, you get to understand the nature of that beast. Tony Blair and
too many of his cronies don't - or do and find it appeals.

Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


Manniq, 03 Nov 2005 09:56:28

Interesting. I was just a tad too young to be involved directly in that campaign...though I did get to do a few things alongside the sainted Peter Hain. As I mentioned elsewhere, my first taste of real grown-up politics was the Pat Arrowsmith campaign.

I think the government ARE playing with fire here. Over the last ten years, I have worked with a number of groups involved in issues in and around divorce - including custody issues. That ranges from the usual suspects (like Gingerbread) through to some of the far-out fringe loony men's groups.

What I strongly believe, ifs that when it comes to politics, dialogue and inclusion is the way to go. Blair preached that on arrival - but then he didn't do that.

People may have views on the Fathers for Justice campaign: but what I do know is that it was born out of seething frustration at the government';s response to more respectable attempts to make a particular viewpoint heard. The thing that underlined it for me was one meeting that the more respectable wing of that campaign arranged with the Minister responsible - at the time, it may have been Harriet Harman...or maybe a Baroness somebody-or-oter.

They arrived. Talked. And at the end, the government spokesperson said, explicitly and to their faces: frankly, we are not interested in what you have to say.

On that day, I suspect, Fathers for Justice - and Batman, Spiderman, and all the rest of the crew - were born.

And I laughed greatly when, later, I heard Peter Hain prattling on about how things have changed since the '70's and now we should have grown-up campaigns.

I don't think the time has come for direct action tactics. But I suspect that that time MAY come. The government doesn't listen - even when it says it does.

And when governments do not listen, there is a clear obligation on citizens to MAKE them listen. Whether that is through mass breaking of the law (akin to the Kinder trespass) - or more expensive stunts like the one on Tower Bridge will be for individuals THEN to decide.

But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm community is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time to make its voice heard.

Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!

Regards,

M

Author wrote:
> ** Reply to message from -OJT- on Thu, 3 Nov
> 2005 02:06:57 +0000 (GMT)
> > My parents are a Quaker and a Christian, both quite
> > political and certainly firm of opinion.
> >
> I recall a friend of mine who was involved with the "Stop The 70s Tour"
> campaign, who was asked to explain himself to a West Country Liberal
> Constituency Committee, largely Quakers and Methodists. So he did, and their
> response was broadly, "If you feel that strongly, why not dynamite the stands,
> rather than **** about with garden forks?"
> The point is, after fighting a world war against Fascism, as my father's
> generation did, you get to understand the nature of that beast. Tony Blair and
> too many of his cronies don't - or do and find it appeals.
> Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


guy, 03 Nov 2005 10:24:18

>
> But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm community
> is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time to make
> its voice heard.
>
> Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!
>
I see the BDSM community as being at about the stage the gays were then; many
of us will be cowed by the hysteria this will up, many more will emigrate to
Spain, etc., some of us will be martyred, but if we can mobilise effectively,
we can win.

But that relies on convincing others that we are the good guys,

Other groups like:

"white van man", who considers he has a right to his stash of porno DVDs,

Any internet user weho realises how much obscene imagery there is in spam and
how they could be prosecuted for something that is just lying in their spam
filter of has been deleted but not erased

This legislation clearly includes books and magazines and will criminalise the
possesiion of many books, even many that cannot be touched unfder the Obscene
Publications Act; because under the OPA one can deploy a defence of "context",
whereas under this proposed legislation that is not taken into account. Just
one image falling into one of these categories will make possession of that
book a criminal offence. The image of State -sponsored book-burning is a
powerful one that will resonate with the wider public.

There are many other potential allies ...

Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


Paul C. Dickie, 03 Nov 2005 12:15:23

In message <4500130.1131011787240.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com
>, manniq@hotmail.com wrote:
>Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!

Is there much chance of Gormless being outed?

--
< Paul >


Amelie, 03 Nov 2005 12:24:25

put a question about the government proposals and my own experience with the
police at a lecture on Internet Security last night for the local pc user
group. The consensus was that it is all a nonsense and that everyone in the
room probably had downloaded porn files on their pc whether they realised it
or not. Amelie

----- Original Message -----
"Sir Guy Masterleigh" , 03 Nov 2005 12:24:25
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:25 AM


> ** Reply to message from manniq@hotmail.com on Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09: 56:27
> +0000
> Mailing-List: contact backlash-help@smartgroups.com
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>>
>> But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm
>> community
>> is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time
>> to make
>> its voice heard.
>>
>> Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!
>>
> I see the BDSM community as being at about the stage the gays were then;
> many
> of us will be cowed by the hysteria this will up, many more will emigrate
> to
> Spain, etc., some of us will be martyred, but if we can mobilise
> effectively,
> we can win.
>
> But that relies on convincing others that we are the good guys,
>
> Other groups like:
>
> "white van man", who considers he has a right to his stash of porno DVDs,
>
> Any internet user weho realises how much obscene imagery there is in spam
> and
> how they could be prosecuted for something that is just lying in their
> spam
> filter of has been deleted but not erased
>
> This legislation clearly includes books and magazines and will criminalise
> the
> possesiion of many books, even many that cannot be touched unfder the
> Obscene
> Publications Act; because under the OPA one can deploy a defence of
> "context",
> whereas under this proposed legislation that is not taken into account.
> Just
> one image falling into one of these categories will make possession of
> that
> book a criminal offence. The image of State -sponsored book-burning is a
> powerful one that will resonate with the wider public.
>
> There are many other potential allies ...
>
> Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100
>
>
>
>
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
> To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
> Report abuse
> http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2892
>


Paul Tavener, 03 Nov 2005 18:45:17

I had the inpression that the Government were planning to allow a number of defences

"The intention is that any new offence
would apply only to pornographic
material. In other words, material that has
been solely or primarily produced for the
purpose of sexual arousal. It is not the
intention to capture medical or scientific
material, educational, artistic, mainstream
broadcast entertainment, or news footage."

I know it's early days and we can't trust Governments who have a tendancy to increase restrictions but we should not loose sight of what the proposals are.

Author wrote:
> >
> > But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm community
> > is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time to make
> > its voice heard.
> >
> > Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!
> >
> I see the BDSM community as being at about the stage the gays were then; many
> of us will be cowed by the hysteria this will up, many more will emigrate to
> Spain, etc., some of us will be martyred, but if we can mobilise effectively,
> we can win.
> But that relies on convincing others that we are the good guys,
> Other groups like:
> "white van man", who considers he has a right to his stash of porno DVDs,
> Any internet user weho realises how much obscene imagery there is in spam and
> how they could be prosecuted for something that is just lying in their spam
> filter of has been deleted but not erased
> This legislation clearly includes books and magazines and will criminalise the
> possesiion of many books, even many that cannot be touched unfder the Obscene
> Publications Act; because under the OPA one can deploy a defence of "context",
> whereas under this proposed legislation that is not taken into account. Just
> one image falling into one of these categories will make possession of that
> book a criminal offence. The image of State -sponsored book-burning is a
> powerful one that will resonate with the wider public.
> There are many other potential allies ...
> Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


Manniq, 03 Nov 2005 18:56:14

These are weasel words, Paul, and overlook two things.

First, that the 'porn industry' is not just about big (criminal) organisations producing porn. The inception of the internet, digital recording, etc., etc. means that a great deal of what goes on is imagery created by individuals which they are then prepared to share with friends.

At one level, it may be that the government has been lobbied by big porn business because they don't like the idea of losing market share to amateurs.

Second, never forget the law of unintended consequences. The Public Order Act was passed at the instigation of the left to protect jews: it was used for decades after by the police to beat up on the left.

The Harassment Act was passed amid all of sad tales about individual women being stalked by nutters. It was first used against animal rights activists.

The anti-terror laws gave police wide new powers that they were supposed only to use in extreme circumstances - and they have used them, inter alia, to pick up people wearing anti-Blair t-shirts.

Do you believe what the government says?

I don't.

Regards,

M

Author wrote:
> I had the inpression that the Government were planning to allow a number of defences
> "The intention is that any new offence
> would apply only to pornographic
> material. In other words, material that has
> been solely or primarily produced for the
> purpose of sexual arousal. It is not the
> intention to capture medical or scientific
> material, educational, artistic, mainstream
> broadcast entertainment, or news footage."
> I know it's early days and we can't trust Governments who have a tendancy to increase restrictions but we should not loose sight of what the proposals are.
> Author wrote:
> > >
> > > But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm community
> > > is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time to make
> > > its voice heard.
> > >
> > > Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!
> > >
> > I see the BDSM community as being at about the stage the gays were then; many
> > of us will be cowed by the hysteria this will up, many more will emigrate to
> > Spain, etc., some of us will be martyred, but if we can mobilise effectively,
> > we can win.
> > But that relies on convincing others that we are the good guys,
> > Other groups like:
> > "white van man", who considers he has a right to his stash of porno DVDs,
> > Any internet user weho realises how much obscene imagery there is in spam and
> > how they could be prosecuted for something that is just lying in their spam
> > filter of has been deleted but not erased
> > This legislation clearly includes books and magazines and will criminalise the
> > possesiion of many books, even many that cannot be touched unfder the Obscene
> > Publications Act; because under the OPA one can deploy a defence of "context",
> > whereas under this proposed legislation that is not taken into account. Just
> > one image falling into one of these categories will make possession of that
> > book a criminal offence. The image of State -sponsored book-burning is a
> > powerful one that will resonate with the wider public.
> > There are many other potential allies ...
> > Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> > Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> > The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> > fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> > www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> > PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


Paul Tavener, 03 Nov 2005 19:48:04

Manniq,

I would agree with you. We can't trust the Government, these are weasel words and any Act passed would undoubtably be missused, but we have to fight the Government on what they say they are going to do rather on what they might do latter. If they decide to move the goal posts there is little we can do about it until this becomes public knowledge at which point we can complain about it. Complaints now that the Government intends to criminalise all violent sexual images will simply meet the response that this is not what is intended.

Author wrote:
> These are weasel words, Paul, and overlook two things.
> First, that the 'porn industry' is not just about big (criminal) organisations producing porn. The inception of the internet, digital recording, etc., etc. means that a great deal of what goes on is imagery created by individuals which they are then prepared to share with friends.
> At one level, it may be that the government has been lobbied by big porn business because they don't like the idea of losing market share to amateurs.
> Second, never forget the law of unintended consequences. The Public Order Act was passed at the instigation of the left to protect jews: it was used for decades after by the police to beat up on the left.
> The Harassment Act was passed amid all of sad tales about individual women being stalked by nutters. It was first used against animal rights activists.
> The anti-terror laws gave police wide new powers that they were supposed only to use in extreme circumstances - and they have used them, inter alia, to pick up people wearing anti-Blair t-shirts.
> Do you believe what the government says?
> I don't.
> Regards,
> M
> Author wrote:
> > I had the inpression that the Government were planning to allow a number of defences
> > "The intention is that any new offence
> > would apply only to pornographic
> > material. In other words, material that has
> > been solely or primarily produced for the
> > purpose of sexual arousal. It is not the
> > intention to capture medical or scientific
> > material, educational, artistic, mainstream
> > broadcast entertainment, or news footage."
> > I know it's early days and we can't trust Governments who have a tendancy to increase restrictions but we should not loose sight of what the proposals are.
> > Author wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But unless I am very mistaken, my reading of the mood around the bdsm community
> > > > is that it is fed up with being pushed around and feels that it is time to make
> > > > its voice heard.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps Paul Goggins should read up on the history of Stonewall!
> > > >
> > > I see the BDSM community as being at about the stage the gays were then; many
> > > of us will be cowed by the hysteria this will up, many more will emigrate to
> > > Spain, etc., some of us will be martyred, but if we can mobilise effectively,
> > > we can win.
> > > But that relies on convincing others that we are the good guys,
> > > Other groups like:
> > > "white van man", who considers he has a right to his stash of porno DVDs,
> > > Any internet user weho realises how much obscene imagery there is in spam and
> > > how they could be prosecuted for something that is just lying in their spam
> > > filter of has been deleted but not erased
> > > This legislation clearly includes books and magazines and will criminalise the
> > > possesiion of many books, even many that cannot be touched unfder the Obscene
> > > Publications Act; because under the OPA one can deploy a defence of "context",
> > > whereas under this proposed legislation that is not taken into account. Just
> > > one image falling into one of these categories will make possession of that
> > > book a criminal offence. The image of State -sponsored book-burning is a
> > > powerful one that will resonate with the wider public.
> > > There are many other potential allies ...
> > > Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> > > Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> > > The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> > > fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> > > www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> > > PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


guy, 04 Nov 2005 10:46:46

> I had the inpression that the Government were planning to allow a number of defences
>
> "The intention is that any new offence
> would apply only to pornographic
> material. In other words, material that has
> been solely or primarily produced for the
> purpose of sexual arousal. It is not the
> intention to capture medical or scientific
> material, educational, artistic, mainstream
> broadcast entertainment, or news footage."
>
There is no implicit acceptance in those exemptions that erotic literature and
most especially any kind of graphic erotica has a legitimate place in our
society. If the law bans as much as it can in those areas, it will affect
mostly the tasteful, responsible, consensual, etc. stuff - because that is
mostly produced by law-abiding people.

The only material those curious about such things (i.e. most men and women at
some point) can then access will be the most extreme, nasty and illegal stuff -
there is an implicit acknowledgement in the Consultation Paper that they are
not going to be able to stop that.

The end result will that be even more young men (and some women) convinced that
eg most women "want" to be abused, (because their self-administered 'sex
educatioin' has not been balanced by more moderate erotica), and they will go
out and act on that presumption. A directly linked and hugely contrary result
to that ostensibly intended.

I can also think of a dozen titles of high-quality "coffee table erotica" which
will be illegal under this act, because they contain one or more potentially
illegal images; even though they are currently perfectly acceptable even under
the Obscene Publication Act, because under that act the context is taken into
account, wherea if I understand this legislation, context will become
irrelevant.

Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100


Paul Tavener, 04 Nov 2005 22:11:33

I suspect that you may be right to suggest that the final outcome may be that all such content becomes illegal, however reading the words in the Governments own consultation paper suggests to me that they intend (or want to give the impression for now at least) that "art" would not be treated in the same way as pornography and that the new offences would have defences of artistic merit just like the OPA.

The real problem that arises because of this is that some material that would be permissable to sell in one context (high art / film) would become a criminal offence to own in another (clips out of context). The driving force behind prosecutions would there fore have to rely to some extent on what was in the mind of the owner. What we are talking about here are thought crimes.

Author wrote:
> > I had the inpression that the Government were planning to allow a number of defences
> >
> > "The intention is that any new offence
> > would apply only to pornographic
> > material. In other words, material that has
> > been solely or primarily produced for the
> > purpose of sexual arousal. It is not the
> > intention to capture medical or scientific
> > material, educational, artistic, mainstream
> > broadcast entertainment, or news footage."
> >
> There is no implicit acceptance in those exemptions that erotic literature and
> most especially any kind of graphic erotica has a legitimate place in our
> society. If the law bans as much as it can in those areas, it will affect
> mostly the tasteful, responsible, consensual, etc. stuff - because that is
> mostly produced by law-abiding people.
> The only material those curious about such things (i.e. most men and women at
> some point) can then access will be the most extreme, nasty and illegal stuff -
> there is an implicit acknowledgement in the Consultation Paper that they are
> not going to be able to stop that.
> The end result will that be even more young men (and some women) convinced that
> eg most women "want" to be abused, (because their self-administered 'sex
> educatioin' has not been balanced by more moderate erotica), and they will go
> out and act on that presumption. A directly linked and hugely contrary result
> to that ostensibly intended.
> I can also think of a dozen titles of high-quality "coffee table erotica" which
> will be illegal under this act, because they contain one or more potentially
> illegal images; even though they are currently perfectly acceptable even under
> the Obscene Publication Act, because under that act the context is taken into
> account, wherea if I understand this legislation, context will become
> irrelevant.
> Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
> Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
> The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
> fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
> www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
> PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100