Two interesting areas to research
Manniq, 20 Oct 2005 22:32:55
The statistic now quoted as near gospel is 39 suicides as a result of Operation Ore. It seems reasonable to presume that a proportion of those were by people who were innocent - and who suicided in response to the injustice of teh system.
So, any analysis been done of those suicides? Any idea of how likely it was that a case would have been proceeded against any/all of those? Any absolutely clear-cut instances of innocent people committing suicide? And any response from police, Home Office, etc.?
Definitely a line to develop - because if we can find evidence of innocent suicides....that should go into the response to the consultation.
Second, how many pics tend to be evidenced in a typical child porn case? And of what provenance?
I do hear of cases where someone is said to have thousands of images on their pc. I also have encountered cases where the police have allegedly found just half a dozen. What is the lowest number that have been used as the basis of a successful prosecution?
If it is one or two, then there is a major public argument that any individual could go to jail as the result of a couple of images they may accidentally have downloaded years ago. Images that they might even not know are on their pc.
Regards,
M
Amelie, 20 Oct 2005 23:49:05
I lost a client being prosecuted under operation Ore, an art teacher and
personal friend, not even into BDSM - his personal life was tragic, his son
having killed himself after being gang-raped. He could not face what was
happening to him or what would most probably happen if he were jailed as a
paedophile. He killed himself waiting for the case to come to court.
Amelie
----- Original Message -----
, 20 Oct 2005 23:49:05
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:32 PM
> The statistic now quoted as near gospel is 39 suicides as a result of
> Operation Ore. It seems reasonable to presume that a proportion of those
> were by people who were innocent - and who suicided in response to the
> injustice of teh system.
>
> So, any analysis been done of those suicides? Any idea of how likely it
> was that a case would have been proceeded against any/all of those? Any
> absolutely clear-cut instances of innocent people committing suicide? And
> any response from police, Home Office, etc.?
>
> Definitely a line to develop - because if we can find evidence of innocent
> suicides....that should go into the response to the consultation.
>
> Second, how many pics tend to be evidenced in a typical child porn case?
> And of what provenance?
>
> I do hear of cases where someone is said to have thousands of images on
> their pc. I also have encountered cases where the police have allegedly
> found just half a dozen. What is the lowest number that have been used as
> the basis of a successful prosecution?
>
> If it is one or two, then there is a major public argument that any
> individual could go to jail as the result of a couple of images they may
> accidentally have downloaded years ago. Images that they might even not
> know are on their pc.
>
> Regards,
>
> M
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
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>
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>
Graham Marsden, 21 Oct 2005 03:23:12
manniq@hotmail.com wrote:
> Second, how many pics tend to be evidenced in a typical child
> porn case? And of what provenance?
>
> I do hear of cases where someone is said to have thousands of
> images on their pc. I also have encountered cases where the
> police have allegedly found just half a dozen. What is the
> lowest number that have been used as the basis of a successful
> prosecution?
PING! A neuron fires...!
(This is a bit long and not exactly related to Backlash and doesn't
really answer the question above, but I think it is of relevance.)
Many years ago (from the searching I've done it may have been 2001, but
another reference seems to suggest 1997), Channel 4 did a series called
"Films of Fire", one of these was entitled "For the Sake of the
Children" which pointed out how, for example, collectors of Victorian
photographs could end up being prosecuted under modern child porn
legislation for having pictures taken by the Rev. Charles Lutwidge
Dodgson AKA Lewis Carrol of Alice Liddell in the nude.
IIRC it also highlighted the case of one guy (a photographer) who was
arrested because out of the hundreds, if not *thousands* of pictures
he'd taken of his daughter, there was one of her as a young teen where
she was (I think) seated with her legs tucked up under her, wearing a
pyjama jacket, she had her head turned sideways and was holding the
collar turned up in a way that someone decided was unduly sexy.
I believe that eventually the guy was acquitted.
I've just done some searching and found the following:
It seems the programme was produced by October Films whose site is at
http://www.octoberfilms.co.uk/productions.php (their site gives the date
as 2001, but a page on the mediawatch site says it was 1997:
http://www.mediawatchuk.org/publications/regulationthekeyissue.htm )
Mostly it seems to be referenced in links from "Media Watch" who bill
themselves as "Providing independent and principled opinion and research
on harm and offence issues in the media", except that this was the
organisation that was formed from the remnants of Mary Whitehouse's
so-called "National Viewers and Listeners Association", and, having read
its response to a consultation by Ofcom which includes such gems as...
* * * * *
"We do not agree that 'rules cannot be made at the whim of a regulator'"
And:
"There is mounting evidence of harm associated with the availability and
consumption of pornography. Research indicates that pornography, far
from being a harmless amusement, encourages behavioural problems
including fetishes and excessive or ritualistic masturbation, sexual
dominance or submissiveness, sex role stereotyping or viewing persons as
sexual objects. Pornography is linked to sexual aggressiveness,
sexually hostile and violent behaviour as well as individual problems.
Such material also promotes an immoral attitude and casual sexual
activity leading to an epidemic of Sexually Transmitted Infections, an
environment conducive to sex crime, a high teenage pregnancy rate as
well as marital infidelity and breakdown."
http://www.mediawatchuk.org/publications/Broadcasting%20Code.htm
* * * * *
... it rather suggests that their "independant and principled
objections" are a little less impartial than you might hope!
I've also found a reference to it on the Histsex page:
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hsxarc19.htm
"Both Ron Oliver...
[From elsewhere on that page: Ron Oliver is a photographer; he does not
exhibit, or sell through galleries, he takes photographs of children on
commission from their parents. Some of the photographs he takes are of
naked children. Oliver's work has been praised by the Bibliotheque
Nationale de Paris for its freshness and purity. Rich doting parents pay
around 4000 pounds for a portfolio of his work and he agrees with the
parents and the children the situation of the photograph.]
... and Graham Ovenden ...
[From elsewhere on that page: Ovenden, who has been painting and
photographing young girls for over 30 years without any complaint or
incident, was arrested in the Spring of 1992 over rumors started by the
Obscene Publications Squad itself that Ovenden was involved in an
"international" child porn ring.]
... were raided with a great show of strength at unsocial hours. Force
and sometimes violence are common to police interventions of these kinds
in both UK and US; the Sturges raid in US is one of the worst instances
that I'm aware of. This is odd, since given the social position and
cultured, non criminal dispositions of the protagonists, an invitation
to take sherry with the Chief Constable would have been sufficient and
appropriate to the airing of any difficulties the police might have
envisaged.
But it was not like that. Police raiders at Ron Oliver's premises found,
it is said, three images which they saw as problematic. Yet they removed
vast quantities of material which by their own definition was uninvolved
with any possible offence; to the extent that he could no longer pursue
his professional life in UK. He therefore left, first for Holland, and
then more permanently for France, where he works untroubled and
well-regarded. Indeed, some of Ron's photographs are in the collection
of the BN, and have been highly praised by the Curator of Prints there.
In some ways, the raid on Graham Ovenden was even more bizarre. For when
they found little for even their fervid imaginations to batten on, they
filled up the binbags with whatever items came to hand, including
photographs of the Royal Family, and pieces from Graham's collection of
Titanic memorabilia, amongst much else to amaze the reader.
The children who sat for both Ron and Graham were, so far as the Police
could manage, sought out and interviewed. Anyone wanting - and I think
everyone needs - a first hand account of how such interviews are
experienced by innocent parties, should seek out a copy [try your
nearest University/College library] of the C4 film "For the Sake of the
Children" broadcast in 1997 as part of their Films of Fire series.
There one may see Emily Ovenden and her friend Maud still hurt and angry
at the efforts made to get them to claim the photographic sessions were
abusive, and at the way the police had converted images of joy and
beauty into pornography by sticking black paper across the faces and
bodies in the photographs; I believe in the sincerity as well as the
stupidity of the reported remarks by the Police that they were thereby
protecting the children's modesty.
The Police can be seen as following a crudely formulated methodology
which embodies the Puritan rejection of all that is beautiful or
Arcadian, and moreover, assumes the right of the State to intervene in
the wholly private lives of any who think differently from themselves.
And in practice, Police attitudes seem to reflect a belief that it is
they who have the right to assign guilt before the matters have been
tested in court.
A very disturbing corollary of my investigations here and elsewhere has
been the discovery that Police have minimal understanding of the
evidential status of a photographic image: what I remarked above in
connection with the Ovenden case has been multiplied time and again
elsewhere and in many aspects. But that is not perhaps surprising, given
that even at legislative level, understanding is such that it is
possible for our 'betters' to find grave significance in something
called the "pseudo photograph," which by definition must show a
non-existent subject. Only persons innocent of knowledge of images and
the way they work could even imagine it as a fearful thing; the rest of
us would shrink from definition, but allow ourselves a little wry
amusement. I am sorry, though not surprised, that my offers to impart
enlightenment have received minimal attention.
[...]
Finally, may I commend an article by Lawrence Stanley, in The Cardozo
Arts and Entertainment Law Journal, Vol7 No2, 1989, pp295-358 and
entitled "The Child Porn Myth." In my view it is a paradigm of legal and
philosophical argument around the topic, and at the same time
demonstrates the prurience and inadequacy of the law as it intrudes into
matters of visual representation. A longer piece, published [privately?]
by Stanley as a book in 1995 is "Regarding Proposed Changes to Article
240b of the Dutch Penal Code."
* * * * *
So, it seems that just *one* suspect picture is enough to cause a
prosecution (although not necessarily a conviction) but it brings up
some interesting points.
Sorry this was a bit long... :-)
Cheers,
Graham.
John Thow, 21 Oct 2005 11:54:08
> manniq@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Second, how many pics tend to be evidenced in a typical child
> > porn case? And of what provenance?
>>
Child porn found on computer
POLICE found child pornography on the computer of a West Craven man when
they went to arrest him on another matter.
Water treatment engineer Darren Harding (38), who lived in Earby at the
time of his arrest, had duped a householder over the lead content of her
supply, Burnley Crown Court was told.
But when police went to his home they found he had a number of images on
his computer, including one of a young girl posing naked in a bath.
Harding, who had been questioned by officers after he altered a
laboratory certificate which would have given the woman official
assurance about the safety of her water, kept his freedom.
Sentencing, Judge John Foster, QC, told the accused he was not thought
to be somebody who was involved or interested in paedophilia. He said he
failed to understand why Harding altered the certificate and added that
his actions must have caused the householder some continuing anxiety.
The judge told Harding, who also has recent convictions for forgery,
there was some concern about what was going on in his life and, in
particular, his attitudes to dishonesty, but he need not go to prison.
Now living in Eastby, near Skipton, Harding admitted using a false
instrument with intent and making an indecent photograph of a child.
He was given 200 hours community punishment, conditionally discharged
for two years and must pay £643 costs.
The court was told the defendant's computer was seized when he was
arrested and police found a number of indecent images downloaded. The
ages of some of the girls were "at the borderline", but there was one
image in which the girl's age could not be disputed. She was aged
between seven and nine.
Mr John Edwards, defending, said, but for the website logo on the
indecent photo, it was "everybody's family snap."
http://www.pendletoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=10&ArticleID=1227545
ONE Image!!
Police policy in Operation Ore was to charge everyone. If there were
fewer than 16 images, a caution was offered (with mandatory Sex offender
registration). I knbow of several cases where full court proceedings
were initiated on the basis of 16 thumbnails. The person was eventually
acquitted but not until after 3 court appearances, being spshed all
over the local paper and wife and kids being the targetof vigilantes.
One of the Op Ore suicides involved an anaesthetist in the North of
Scotland who had only 4 'indecent images' on his PC.
Although the police continue to insist that all 7200 Ore names had
signed up to child porn, this is far from the truth. Only 16 of the 400
Keyz sites involved had definite CP with around another 100 which were
suspicious.
"A flaw in the child porn witch-hunt
The hounding that has driven many suspects to suicide is based on
tainted internet evidence, says expert witness Duncan Campbell
Ministers preparing for next month\x{2019}s G8 summit have announced plans to
create a central database of internet paedophiles. Such a database would
necessarily include the names of those convicted as part of Operation
Ore, the huge police investigation launched three years ago on the basis
of a list of 7,200 names supplied to British police forces by American
colleagues.
The men on the list are accused of having paid for child porn through
Landslide, a website that operated in Texas from 1996-9. So far, about
1,200 cases have resulted in convictions. The public has been led to
believe that a huge number of unsavoury \x{2014} and possibly dangerous \x{2014} men
have been brought to book.
There is no dispute that abusing children is a hideous crime. But it is
also appalling to be accused unjustly of such a crime. My investigations
and work as an expert witness in a number of Operation Ore cases have
led me to believe that the evidence has been exaggerated and used
unacceptably."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1669131,00.html
Operation ORE Exposed
http://www.computer-investigations.com/cmnt11.html
"Doubts cast over success of child porn inquiry
MICHAEL HOWIE
Key points
\x{2022} Expert says flawed paedophilia investigation led to 33 suicides
\x{2022} Claims that targets always knew they were visiting child porn sites
criticised
\x{2022} Police hail success of raids with 100 convictions and 120 children
rescued"
'I lost my home, my marriage collapsed - I considered suicide'
WHEN David was told that his credit card had been used to access a
child-porn website, his whole world collapsed.
That was back in December 2002, but the 41-year-old, from Glasgow,
recalls the moment as if it was yesterday.
"I was summoned to my boss's office, where two police officers were
waiting to inform me that I was accused of accessing an internet site.
At first they wouldn't tell me which site," said David, who works in IT.
"I was escorted from my workplace by four Strathclyde police officers
and taken to my home address, where another three or four cars full of
police were waiting. They searched my home, every room, and took my
computer and peripherals.
"I was then taken to a police station and questioned for three hours
about child pornography - something I knew nothing about. They told me
my credit card had been used on two occasions to subscribe to Landslide,
which provides access to thousands of adult porn sites. They said it
meant I had been looking at child pornography."
David, who did not wish to reveal his surname because of the stigma
attached to the allegations, said he was not charged, but was subjected
to a 14-month investigation. The inquiry was eventually dropped, but he
says the stress led to the breakup of his marriage.
He has now become the first Operation Ore suspect in Scotland, and
possibly the UK, to sue a police force for suffering caused by the
investigation."
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=684&id=2015062005
=============================================================
The 120 children rescued represents a 1-3% pick up rate of actual abuse
roughly equivalent to what would have been detected if 4000 homes had
been raided completely at random.
The cost per case has been estimated at £10,000 to the police alone, not
counting the cost of broken families, lost jobs, suspensions
If the violent porn law goes through, the same fate will befall
thousands of other families.
JT
guy, 21 Oct 2005 12:09:50
** Reply to message from John Thow on Fri, 21 Oct 2005
11:54:51 +0100
Small point:
"..... definite CP ..... "
In our circles CP is often casually used to mean 'corporal punishment'; it is
best for all concerned if we all use the full term, whichever we mean; because
I have already come across officialdom, (in this case Canadian Customs)
presuming CP meant Child Pornography, when corporal punishment was obviously
intended; but it led to somebody being raid and almost ruined.
Otherwise all the points made are highly relevant.
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