Thread

Funds

goodghirl, 18 Oct 2005 15:07:46

I don't know if this has been covered before if it has please forgive me.

Is someone in charge for the funds Backlash raise?

is there an account?

is there a group that would be happy to hold the funds that everyone would be happy with. People seem happy to make donations however they are understandably concerned about where the money is going.

I think this is something that needs to be sorted asap before any major funds can be raised

Thanks

Carla

rosalee, 18 Oct 2005 18:06:47

We've been discussing possibly setting up an account and the best way to go about that. In the meantime, I think Dem Red and/or Adrian have been looking after any money that has already been raised.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----

: goodghirl@btinternet.com, 18 Oct 2005 18:06:47

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:07 PM
Subject: [backlash] Funds

I don't know if this has been covered before if it has please forgive me.

Is someone in charge for the funds Backlash raise?

is there an account?

is there a group that would be happy to hold the funds that everyone would be happy with. People seem happy to make donations however they are understandably concerned about where the money is going.

I think this is something that needs to be sorted asap before any major funds can be raised

Thanks

Carla

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Paul Tavener, 18 Oct 2005 20:24:42

Author wrote:
> I don't know if this has been covered before if it has please forgive me.
> Is someone in charge for the funds Backlash raise?
> is there an account?
> is there a group that would be happy to hold the funds that everyone would be happy with. People seem happy to make donations however they are understandably concerned about where the money is going.
> I think this is something that needs to be sorted asap before any major funds can be raised
> Thanks
> Carla

I have a clubs and societies account with LLoyds set up specificaly for Ofwatch but which is empty as I haven't had time to set things up on the Ofwatch website. If you are wanting a convenient place to put the money then you are welcome to use this account and I am happy to change the signatories around accordingly as you wish. I won't set anything up for Ofwatch while it is needed for Backlash.

It would obviously be better to have a dedicated Backlash account, but I know from experience that it can take weeks to get one set up and we don't have weeks, we need to get something on line ASAP so that people can throw money at it.

adrian, 18 Oct 2005 21:46:29

At 18:00 18/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>We've been discussing possibly setting up an account and the best way to
go about that. In the meantime, I think Dem Red and/or Adrian have been
looking after any money that has already been raised.
>
>Ginny

I replied to Carla off-group. Maybe someone knowledgeable can repeat the
options we have.

samantha, 18 Oct 2005 22:58:44

if you want just a plain account set up and know who you want named on it
then let me know... i work for one of the banks and its not that hard to get
set up

ta jenis x

admin@ofwatch.org.uk, 18 Oct 2005 22:58:44

>Subject: [backlash] RE: Funds
>
>
>
>Author wrote:
> > I don't know if this has been covered before if it has please forgive
>me.
> > Is someone in charge for the funds Backlash raise?
> > is there an account?
> > is there a group that would be happy to hold the funds that everyone
>would be happy with. People seem happy to make donations however they are
>understandably concerned about where the money is going.
> > I think this is something that needs to be sorted asap before any major
>funds can be raised
> > Thanks
> > Carla
>
>I have a clubs and societies account with LLoyds set up specificaly for
>Ofwatch but which is empty as I haven't had time to set things up on the
>Ofwatch website. If you are wanting a convenient place to put the money
>then you are welcome to use this account and I am happy to change the
>signatories around accordingly as you wish. I won't set anything up for
>Ofwatch while it is needed for Backlash.
>
>It would obviously be better to have a dedicated Backlash account, but I
>know from experience that it can take weeks to get one set up and we don't
>have weeks, we need to get something on line ASAP so that people can throw
>money at it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
>visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
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>
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samantha, 18 Oct 2005 22:58:44

if you want just a plain account set up and know who you want named on it
then let me know... i work for one of the banks and its not that hard to get
set up

ta jenis x

admin@ofwatch.org.uk, 18 Oct 2005 22:58:44

goodghirl, 18 Oct 2005 23:21:21

That sounds fabby

Is it possible to get an account like that with a debit card as this is something that is needed to set up either no chexs or paypal

Carla

kinda sweet wrote:
With accounts the probable best is setting up a basic deposit account...
most banks call them *treasurers accounts* they can be one or two to sign an
have unlimited signatorys on them ie.. opened in someones name and others.

They tend to be passbook accounts rather than card based but so long as
people have the sort code and account number money can be easily payed into
them..... as well as checks and cash.

Typically you need a non-personal account thats designed for
clubs/societys/charitys

Mail me off list it you need help banking wise

jenis x

Adrian, 18 Oct 2005 23:21:21

>Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds
>
>At 18:00 18/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
> >We've been discussing possibly setting up an account and the best way to
>go about that. In the meantime, I think Dem Red and/or Adrian have been
>looking after any money that has already been raised.
> >
> >Ginny
>
>I replied to Carla off-group. Maybe someone knowledgeable can repeat the
>options we have.
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
>visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
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>
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adrian, 18 Oct 2005 23:27:01

At 22:01 18/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>With accounts the probable best is setting up a basic deposit account...
>most banks call them *treasurers accounts* they can be one or two to sign an
>have unlimited signatorys on them ie.. opened in someones name and others.
>
>They tend to be passbook accounts rather than card based but so long as
>people have the sort code and account number money can be easily payed into
>them..... as well as checks and cash.
>
>Typically you need a non-personal account thats designed for
>clubs/societys/charitys
>
>Mail me off list it you need help banking wise
>
>jenis x

Many thanks. Only problem is that for online payment you do need a credit
card account, they credit you via it. Good also to have the normal sort
code and account number so people can pay in without charges.

If we just need to have two signers I think that would be worth doing, but
how long until we can get a credit card? Would people be OK if the money
goes into the UF credit card? If and when Backlash gets a normal bank
account we can transfer it over, otherwise pay out on their behalf. This
might be easier than Paul's offer as we already have the Nochex account.
It would be cleaner to start a second Nochex acct but Backlash payments
will be clearly labelled as such so no chance of confusion.

I'll chase Spanner as we asked them first. Carla's quite keen to get this
sorted out, can we have opinions quick?

Adrian

goodghirl, 18 Oct 2005 23:50:36

Im not 100% sure but I think its a debit card rather than a credit card - I really don't think they would issue a credit card. The reason Im keen is that everyones mind is on this subject at the moment so this is the time to try and do the raising of funds.

Also does anyone know how much is needed?

Thanks

Carla

Adrian wrote:
At 22:01 18/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>With accounts the probable best is setting up a basic deposit account...
>most banks call them *treasurers accounts* they can be one or two to sign an
>have unlimited signatorys on them ie.. opened in someones name and others.
>
>They tend to be passbook accounts rather than card based but so long as
>people have the sort code and account number money can be easily payed into
>them..... as well as checks and cash.
>
>Typically you need a non-personal account thats designed for
>clubs/societys/charitys
>
>Mail me off list it you need help banking wise
>
>jenis x

Many thanks. Only problem is that for online payment you do need a credit
card account, they credit you via it. Good also to have the normal sort
code and account number so people can pay in without charges.

If we just need to have two signers I think that would be worth doing, but
how long until we can get a credit card? Would people be OK if the money
goes into the UF credit card? If and when Backlash gets a normal bank
account we can transfer it over, otherwise pay out on their behalf. This
might be easier than Paul's offer as we already have the Nochex account.
It would be cleaner to start a second Nochex acct but Backlash payments
will be clearly labelled as such so no chance of confusion.

I'll chase Spanner as we asked them first. Carla's quite keen to get this
sorted out, can we have opinions quick?

Adrian

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rosalee, 19 Oct 2005 00:12:36

About 10k we think.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----

: goodghirl, 19 Oct 2005 00:12:36

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds

Im not 100% sure but I think its a debit card rather than a credit card - I really don't think they would issue a credit card. The reason Im keen is that everyones mind is on this subject at the moment so this is the time to try and do the raising of funds.

Also does anyone know how much is needed?

Thanks

Carla

Adrian wrote:
At 22:01 18/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>With accounts the probable best is setting up a basic deposit account...
>most banks call them *treasurers accounts* they can be one or two to sign an
>have unlimited signatorys on them ie.. opened in someones name and others.
>
>They tend to be passbook accounts rather than card based but so long as
>people have the sort code and account number money can be easily payed into
>them..... as well as checks and cash.
>
>Typically you need a non-personal account thats designed for
>clubs/societys/charitys
>
>Mail me off list it you need help banking wise
>
>jenis x

Many thanks. Only problem is that for online payment you do need a credit
card account, they credit you via it. Good also to have the normal sort
code and account number so people can pay in without charges.

If we just need to have two signers I think that would be worth doing, but
how long until we can get a credit card? Would people be OK if the money
goes into the UF credit card? If and when Backlash gets a normal bank
account we can transfer it over, otherwise pay out on their behalf. This
might be easier than Paul's offer as we already have the Nochex account.
It would be cleaner to start a second Nochex acct but Backlash payments
will be clearly labelled as such so no chance of confusion.

I'll chase Spanner as we asked them first. Carla's quite keen to get this
sorted out, can we have opinions quick?

Adrian

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Mick, 19 Oct 2005 00:22:35

Hi jenis,
Just to let you know that 39 pounds was raised at the Shropshire munch last night. I will forward it as soon as you can let me know where.

Mick_H

========================================
Message Received: Oct 18 2005, 10:58 PM

"kinda sweet" , 19 Oct 2005 00:22:35

Cc:
Subject: RE: [backlash] RE: Funds

if you want just a plain account set up and know who you want named on it
then let me know... i work for one of the banks and its not that hard to get
set up

ta jenis x

: admin@ofwatch.org.uk, 19 Oct 2005 00:22:35

rosalee, 19 Oct 2005 00:30:49

I think the Nochex account sounds simplest and most user-friendly - not that I know a lot about this sort of thing! Could we use the Unfettered account until there is a separate one set up for Backlash?

Ginny

----- Original Message -----

: Adrian, 19 Oct 2005 00:30:49

Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds

Many thanks. Only problem is that for online payment you do need a credit
card account, they credit you via it. Good also to have the normal sort
code and account number so people can pay in without charges.

If we just need to have two signers I think that would be worth doing, but
how long until we can get a credit card? Would people be OK if the money
goes into the UF credit card? If and when Backlash gets a normal bank
account we can transfer it over, otherwise pay out on their behalf. This
might be easier than Paul's offer as we already have the Nochex account.
It would be cleaner to start a second Nochex acct but Backlash payments
will be clearly labelled as such so no chance of confusion.

I'll chase Spanner as we asked them first. Carla's quite keen to get this
sorted out, can we have opinions quick?

Adrian

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Manniq, 19 Oct 2005 09:09:20

Ginny - that was no more than my opening bid/finger in the air for the first year.

If we do little more than get a legal opinion and print a few flyers, then we might manage on �2k -�3k. If we start to do a few other things - like publish and circulate position papers, and put in place a high level media strategy that involves going after lots of press, plus funding occasional meetings, then could be a LOT more.

I would say: assume you can't do anything much worth doing for less than �5k in the first year; but �10k is more realistic (based on experience of other campaigns) - and after that, the job is about identifying things we want to do and matching them to funds.

Two points: don't be stingy in what you ask people to do for you. If you ask for �100 nicely, they won't be offended. They may say no: but you can still ask for �50.

Take a look at what charities ask for. From memory, a lot present options starting at �250: very few Backlash supporters are likely to do that, but no harm in asking. Then �100, �50, �25, �10.

The other thing is people like to see giving tied to concrete results. So asking someone to pay for 5,000 leaflets - or a meeting, or whatever - is a subtle way of increasing the amount given and also allowing someone to be able to feel not just that they handed over a cheque, but 'I did that' in connection with whatever they funded.

Regards,

M

Author wrote:
> About 10k we think.
> Ginny
> ----- Original Message -----

om: goodghirl, 19 Oct 2005 09:09:20

> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds
> Im not 100% sure but I think its a debit card rather than a credit card - I really don't think they would issue a credit card. The reason Im keen is that everyones mind is on this subject at the moment so this is the time to try and do the raising of funds.
> Also does anyone know how much is needed?
> Thanks
> Carla
> Adrian wrote:
> At 22:01 18/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
> >With accounts the probable best is setting up a basic deposit account...
> >most banks call them *treasurers accounts* they can be one or two to sign an
> >have unlimited signatorys on them ie.. opened in someones name and others.
> >
> >They tend to be passbook accounts rather than card based but so long as
> >people have the sort code and account number money can be easily payed into
> >them..... as well as checks and cash.
> >
> >Typically you need a non-personal account thats designed for
> >clubs/societys/charitys
> >
> >Mail me off list it you need help banking wise
> >
> >jenis x
> Many thanks. Only problem is that for online payment you do need a credit
> card account, they credit you via it. Good also to have the normal sort
> code and account number so people can pay in without charges.
> If we just need to have two signers I think that would be worth doing, but
> how long until we can get a credit card? Would people be OK if the money
> goes into the UF credit card? If and when Backlash gets a normal bank
> account we can transfer it over, otherwise pay out on their behalf. This
> might be easier than Paul's offer as we already have the Nochex account.
> It would be cleaner to start a second Nochex acct but Backlash payments
> will be clearly labelled as such so no chance of confusion.
> I'll chase Spanner as we asked them first. Carla's quite keen to get this
> sorted out, can we have opinions quick?
> Adrian
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
> To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
> Report abuse http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D1803

MG, 19 Oct 2005 14:32:08

----- Original Message -----

, 19 Oct 2005 14:32:08

To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:45 AM

>>>

- and after that, the job is about identifying things we want to do and
matching them to funds.

<<<<

Available funds cannot dictate what is done.

If things need to be done then the funds have to be found. Work cannot be
left undone just because finance needs raising.

MG

�No Name Set�, 20 Oct 2005 18:04:23

edible junk here...

Adrian writes: Maybe someone knowledgeable can repeat the
options we have.

First, we need to appoint someone or ones to handle the funds.

Options:

We could ask another group with established accounts etc to
handle money raised for us, which means trusting them to keep it
separate and to pay those we wish paid promptly and
efficiently. Spanner, Unfettered and I think someone else has
been mentioned. This is easiest - in that is passes the buck
for the work - if they are willing to do it.

We could appoint one or more individuals to handle the money
personally, working through their own bank accounts/credit or
debit cards as appropriate. This might be two or more
individuals who set up a personal joint account in their own
names. This means trusting them - and if they go under the
proverbial bus, trusting that their executors will know and
honour the info that this apparently personal money should be
returned to us.

We could open a bank account with Girobank. THis gives us a
current account with cheque book, account number and sort code
and ability of others to do a girobank transfer directly to us,
and also a linked deposit account (to get interest on "spare"
cash). These can be a bit of a pain as you have to operate them
mainly by post not over the counter, but are cheap, available to
clubs and (used to) require minimal bureaucracy. (There's the
further advantage in appeal to potential international donors -
international postbank network transfers in the EU are cheaper
and, for some reason, more easily understood than transfers to
commercial banks, and many more Europeans than Brits have
postbank accounts.)

We could open a bank account with a commercial bank, probably
using one of their "clubs and societies" accounts, about which
there are probably leaflets in the racks in branches. This
gives us a current account with a cheque book (hence account
number/sort code, also BIC and IBAN codes) and we can chose how
many people can sign, and how many have to sign each
transaction, possibly varying with value. FOr this, we would
have to have a meeting which agrees the proposal to open such an
account in the form of words on the paperwork they will give us,
and they will probably request a copy of our constitution too,
which means we'd have to have approved one, to prove we are an
actual organisation that's been duly constituted. Most of the
popular "high street" commercial banks will do this for free
(except for exotic requirements or if we overdraw). I once
tried it with the Co-op, however, who charged a small fortune
(Co-op not my choice, mandated by certain person in
themembership with loud mouth and pro-co-op politics.)

The latter 2 options mean the money is identifiably ours, and if
the signatories go under the bus, it is still clearly ours and
we have to appoint new officers. The last is likely to be the
most complicated, in needed to be formally constituted.

I can write a constitution - with aim to be as simple,
minimalist and permissive as possible - but with other
commitments can't guarantee to have it done by Monday night.

I know nothing about Paypal (web site to get to register is
inaccessible) nor Nochex (wot's that??) and can't understand the
stuff people have posted about credit cards. I think it unlikely
that a comparatively informal society with no financial track
record would get credit facilities extended.

I can get to a Post Office before Monday night and ask for the
forms to open a Giroban account, unless anyone else would like
to offer to do that.

--
Rosemary

adrian, 20 Oct 2005 22:31:29

Thanks for the options Rosemary

Nochex and I'm sure PayPal allow you to open accounts through which you can
receive cash. It goes into your (Nochex or PayPal) account, and you can
get them to transfer it into your credit card account. Therefore you have
to have a credit card account.

They keep a record of payments received so that even if the credit account
wasn't ours we could give as many people the account login details so they
could see the money coming in. I think the money could be paid into any
other credit card account by anyone with a login so we have to trust them.

E-mails can be automatically sent to any number of addresses when a payment
is received.

With any of the options Rosemary listed, getting a credit card within a
reasonable time (or already having one) is key as online payments may well
be a significant proportion of income.

goodghirl, 20 Oct 2005 22:40:28

Ive checked this out you do need a *debit* card to set up a no chex account and the money that is sent to you via donations ect are then held till you send them to your bank account. No bank will give us a credit card a debit card perhaps but a credit card would be allowing us to borrow money and that isn't going to happen.

It is actually a debit card that is needed.

Hope this helps

Carla

Adrian wrote:
Thanks for the options Rosemary

Nochex and I'm sure PayPal allow you to open accounts through which you can
receive cash. It goes into your (Nochex or PayPal) account, and you can
get them to transfer it into your credit card account. Therefore you have
to have a credit card account.

They keep a record of payments received so that even if the credit account
wasn't ours we could give as many people the account login details so they
could see the money coming in. I think the money could be paid into any
other credit card account by anyone with a login so we have to trust them.

E-mails can be automatically sent to any number of addresses when a payment
is received.

With any of the options Rosemary listed, getting a credit card within a
reasonable time (or already having one) is key as online payments may well
be a significant proportion of income.

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adrian, 20 Oct 2005 23:09:02

At 22:38 20/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Ive checked this out you do need a *debit* card to set up a no chex
account and the money that is sent to you via donations ect are then held
till you send them to your bank account. No bank will give us a credit
card a debit card perhaps but a credit card would be allowing us to borrow
money and that isn't going to happen.
>
>
>
>It is actually a debit card that is needed.

OK. I guess it's easy to get a debit card with a bank account.

guy, 20 Oct 2005 23:11:21

** Reply to message from goodghirl on Thu, 20 Oct
2005 22:38:49 +0100 (BST)

> Ive checked this out you do need a *debit* card to set up a no chex account and
> the money that is sent to you via donations ect are then held till you send
> them to your bank account. No bank will give us a credit card a debit card
> perhaps but a credit card would be allowing us to borrow money and that isn't
> going to happen.
>
No, what you need is a Merchant Account that allows people to pay you. I can
tell anybody (privately) of somewhere with whom you can set that up in days,
not too many questions asked, once you have a bank account. But they do charge
a criminal 5% per transaction.

Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100

goodghirl, 20 Oct 2005 23:11:32

heres hoping so are you going to speak to jenis about it? and arrange it

*smiles*

Carla

Adrian wrote:
At 22:38 20/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Ive checked this out you do need a *debit* card to set up a no chex
account and the money that is sent to you via donations ect are then held
till you send them to your bank account. No bank will give us a credit
card a debit card perhaps but a credit card would be allowing us to borrow
money and that isn't going to happen.
>
>
>
>It is actually a debit card that is needed.

OK. I guess it's easy to get a debit card with a bank account.

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adrian, 20 Oct 2005 23:48:14

At 22:11 20/10/2005 GMT, you wrote:
>** Reply to message from goodghirl on Thu, 20 Oct
>2005 22:38:49 +0100 (BST)
>
>> Ive checked this out you do need a *debit* card to set up a no chex
account and
>> the money that is sent to you via donations ect are then held till you send
>> them to your bank account. No bank will give us a credit card a debit card
>> perhaps but a credit card would be allowing us to borrow money and that
isn't
>> going to happen.
>>
>No, what you need is a Merchant Account

No - you either need a Merchant Account OR a debit card and use Nochex. A
Merchant Account is more professional looking, but Nochex only charges 2.6%
plus 20p which is cheaper on amounts over �10.

adrian, 20 Oct 2005 23:51:38

At 23:11 20/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>heres hoping so are you going to speak to jenis about it? and arrange it
>
Well, are we?

We'd need 3 or more signatories, any 2 needed to sign a cheque. For
practical reasons best if they're in the same area which probably means
London. Bobette and Dem Red? They both sign for Unfettered. Who else
from one of our organisations?

goodghirl, 20 Oct 2005 23:57:26

Ginny ??

Adrian wrote:At 23:11 20/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>heres hoping so are you going to speak to jenis about it? and arrange it
>
Well, are we?

We'd need 3 or more signatories, any 2 needed to sign a cheque. For
practical reasons best if they're in the same area which probably means
London. Bobette and Dem Red? They both sign for Unfettered. Who else
from one of our organisations?

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rosalee, 21 Oct 2005 00:33:34

I'm willing to be one, as a member of FAC.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----

: Adrian, 21 Oct 2005 00:33:34

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds

At 23:11 20/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>heres hoping so are you going to speak to jenis about it? and arrange it
>
Well, are we?

We'd need 3 or more signatories, any 2 needed to sign a cheque. For
practical reasons best if they're in the same area which probably means
London. Bobette and Dem Red? They both sign for Unfettered. Who else
from one of our organisations?

--
If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash

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Report abuse http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D1975

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demolitionred, 21 Oct 2005 06:26:10

Do we need two in the midlands, in case they need stuff?

adrian, 21 Oct 2005 08:51:05

At 00:28 21/10/2005 +0100, Rosalee wrote:
>> We'd need 3 or more signatories,
>I'm willing to be one, as a member of FAC.

Fine with me. Jenis, is that all we need, can you mail me privately? What
paperwork do you need from us, we can no doubt organise this on Monday if
we can get the paperwork in time.

Assuming all are agreed. Speak now....

bobette, 21 Oct 2005 09:48:04

> London. Bobette and Dem Red? They both sign for Unfettered. Who else
> from one of our organisations?
I am happy to be a signatory. in the meantime i am suggesting contributors write cheques to Unfettered Ltd.

samantha, 21 Oct 2005 09:56:50

If you have a similar account for unfettered... stay with the same bank (esp
if some of the signatorys are involved with the two like dem red and
bobette) it makes things alot easier if your existing there already as a
customer.

jenis x

bob@citybikecouriers.co.uk, 21 Oct 2005 09:56:50

>Subject: Re: [backlash] Funds
>
>
>
> > London. Bobette and Dem Red? They both sign for Unfettered. Who
>else
> > from one of our organisations?
>I am happy to be a signatory. in the meantime i am suggesting contributors
>write cheques to Unfettered Ltd.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
>visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
>To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
>Report abuse
>http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D2002

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