possible petitions Back To Basics
guy, 18 Oct 2005 12:57:20
> that makes the petition read like this. any other alternatives, suggestions?
>
>
> If not, can someone set this up and post the link here so we can start to publicise it.
>
>
> Author wrote:
> > 1. We oppose government proposals to make it illegal to view or possess images that someone, somewhere, has unilaterally decided are distasteful, downloaded from the internet.
> > The government admits there is no evidence to link such images with violence but wants to take away our freedom to decide what images we look at regardless
> > This could lead to hundreds of thousands of ordinary people being sent to jail just because the government doesn't like what they choose to look at.
> > We, the undersigned, call on the government to stop its nannying and get out of our bedrooms.
>
I have just read the consultation paper. IMHO would not enjoy viewing such
imagery, as narrowly defined, and have absolutely no intention of disseminating
for profit or for any other reason. The problems I have with it is that it is:
1 unnecessary; I see it as clearly being a response to a 'moral panic' that is
best ignored, because if let alone it will simply go away
2 leads to inevitable unintended consequences;
a stifling open and relatively dissemination of borderline imagery, creating
and strengthening a 'black' market the paper ostensibly seeks to suppress
b increased numbers of police "fishing trips"
c swamping of official capacity for forensic analysis of computers, (leading to
huge delays in bringing all cases, including paedophile, terrorist and fraud
too, to trial),
d almost inevitably use of such a law as 'administrative justice' to harass and
punish people for legal, but politically inconvenient activities,
e or to feather the nest of corrupt officers by threatening raids unless bribes
are paid,
(because the disruption to normal life caused by having your computers and
paperwork seized, legal costs and 'opportunity costs' of time spent preparing
your defence will of itself bankrupt most small businesses or individuals, even
if they win when they get to court), etc.
As a person formerly involved in politics I am extremely cynical about any kind
of petition. I would suggest that most politicians feel the same way. Petitions
usually only reflect the determination of a few highly motivated organisers,
who may well have a vested interest. For a petition to be taken seriously it
has to be couched in very specific terms that indicate that, at least the
organisers and ideally those signing it too, are reasonable, rational people
who fully understand the issues and are responding to the specific proposals,
(not just to some emotive scare story), and who do not have a specific vested
interest. One of the basic unwritten rules for success in democratic politics
is that you not only have to prove, every time, that you are sensible,
rational, etc.; but that you always have to pretend the other side is too, even
if you disagree with every word they write or say. The words above and most
others I have seen fall foul of these basic principles and will be dismissed as
hysterical over-reaction by people best ignored.
I would suggest something more along the lines of:
We, the undersigned, consider that the best response to the Home Office
Consultation Paper On The Possession Of Extreme Pornographic Material is to
take no action. We believe this to be true because:
1 There is no proven need for legislation in this area, as admitted by the
consultation paper
2 There are likely to be unintended consequences of such legislation, eg
a forcing such material deep underground, where it will be even more lucrative
and difficult to suppress
b place a duty and an opportunity to involve the police and authorities in
matters in which they have no good reason to intervene
c it could be used to 'tax' or 'harass' individuals, groups or companies
pursuing lawful but politically or administratively inconvenient activities
d swamp the limited facilities for eg forensic computer analysis, which would
be better used for pursuing more vital concerns, such as Terrorism,
immigration, fraud, serious paedophile, etc.
e prosecution of many hundreds or thousands of people whose activities cause no
harm to themselves or others
f bringing the law generally into disrepute by the above consequences becoming
apparent
I would suggest it is far more effective to try to ensure that as many people
put in careful argued submissions in response, with a copy to their MP and to
this campaign too. I certainly intend to do so. It is certainly a technique
that won me a good many skirmishes in my political career.
Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100
adrian, 18 Oct 2005 13:30:24
Excellent!
I particularly enjoyed "bringing the law generally into disrepute by the above consequences becoming apparent".
I feel that 1, "There is no proven need for legislation in this area, as admitted by the consultation paper", is a bit weak.
They admit there is no evidence for any harm to the viewer, nor for it inciting violence. They raise fears of abuse involved in its production for which there is similarly no evidence; in fact we can show ample evidence that the vast majority of such images do not involve any sort of abuse.
A large majority of psychotherapists and other relevant professionals feel that the repression of fantasy, which this law is clearly intended to effect, is unhealthy and dangerous for the individual and the public in general.
Can we get that into one sentence?
demolitionred, 18 Oct 2005 13:35:04
Thanks Guy. We are doing both.
The purpose of the petition is to raise awarrness and give us a media opp...as the campaign continues after the consultaion process is complete.
It is in no way an alternative to our continued attempts to get people to complete a submission.
To this end, there have been meetings in London and Birmingham.
We have completed flyers and are currently distributing them to all clubs and munches as well as through other more libertarian outlets.
We are also issuing press releases to both BDSM and other media.
We have arranged meetings with MPs to put our case.
We have also agreed to instruct a QC and expert on Human Rights law to give us his opinion on these proposals. We are currently raising mney to pay for his view.
But one of the issues is to persuade the government that this is not a minority interest that they can easily ignore and to keep our point of view alive in the media eye.
I think we agree on the risks of these proposals becoming law. I also beleive the petition in its curent state largely says what you do, except.
> c it could be used to 'tax' or 'harass' individuals, groups or companies
> pursuing lawful but politically or administratively inconvenient activities -- which is not likely to attract many signatures.
> d swamp the limited facilities for eg forensic computer analysis, which would
> be better used for pursuing more vital concerns, such as Terrorism,
> immigration, fraud, serious paedophile, etc. -- I'll try and add something along these lines.
Although obviously we do want to keep the petition relatively short.
demolitionred, 18 Oct 2005 13:42:45
Adrian wrote:
> A large majority of psychotherapists and other relevant professionals feel that the repression of fantasy, which this law is clearly intended to effect, is unhealthy and dangerous for the individual and the public in general.
> Can we get that into one sentence?
This is a point we will defintely argue and that I hope will go in to the Unfetetred submission, but one that I beleivve could go against us in a wider audience without any accopanying explanation...
anyone else?
guy, 18 Oct 2005 13:58:28
** Reply to message from adrian@aeolian.plus.com on
> Excellent!
>
> I particularly enjoyed "bringing the law generally into disrepute by the above consequences becoming apparent".
>
The point is that almost everyone knows a 'pervert'; but they don't know it
because we all keep these things private.
I recall trying to defend the local Refuge For Battered Women, in the Council
chamber, against Tories telling me, to the noisy approval of their mates: "It
doesn't happen here, they are all coming here for their holidays from the
cities, because they cannot afford to do it any other way," whilst knowing
there were at least two (Conservative) wife-beaters and one battered wife
amongst the 50 people present - but not being able to say so.
(Incidentally, if I read the paper correctly aanyone who has of serious
injuries from an assault, to be used eg in a case against the perpetrator may
well be committing an offence under this proposal.)
Somehow we have to get the point across that mishandled this is one more
political stunt that will turn around and bite them in the bum.
Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100
guy, 18 Oct 2005 14:10:53
> Thanks Guy. We are doing both.
>
> The purpose of the petition is to raise awarrness and give us a media opp...as
> the campaign continues after the consultaion process is complete.
>
> It is in no way an alternative to our continued attempts to get people to complete a submission.
>
> To this end, there have been meetings in London and Birmingham.
>
> We have completed flyers and are currently distributing them to all clubs and
> munches as well as through other more libertarian outlets.
>
Can you send me a couple of thousand to go in our mailing?
> We are also issuing press releases to both BDSM and other media.
>
> We have arranged meetings with MPs to put our case.
>
> We have also agreed to instruct a QC and expert on Human Rights law to give us
> his opinion on these proposals. We are currently raising mney to pay for his
> view.
>
> But one of the issues is to persuade the government that this is not a minority
> interest that they can easily ignore and to keep our point of view alive in the
> media eye.
>
> I think we agree on the risks of these proposals becoming law. I also beleive
> the petition in its curent state largely says what you do,
I would not disagree, but I would suggest the emotive language of your phrasing
will inevitably lead to it carrying less weight with those who matter than it
should.
except.
>
>
> > c it could be used to 'tax' or 'harass' individuals, groups or companies
> > pursuing lawful but politically or administratively inconvenient activities -- which is not likely to attract many signatures.
>
This is the key Civil Liberties issue; it will be very easy to make raids
under this sort of legislation, to use for fishing trips or just to "punish"
the politically inconvenient.
> > d swamp the limited facilities for eg forensic computer analysis, which would
> > be better used for pursuing more vital concerns, such as Terrorism,
> > immigration, fraud, serious paedophile, etc. -- I'll try and add something along these lines.
>
> Although obviously we do want to keep the petition relatively short.
>
Of course; it has to be short and tight.
Academy Incorporated: turning fantasy into reality
Miss Prim's Muir Academy, Muir Academy For Maids,
The Academy Club and The Tawsingham Society:
fast friendly, helpful, discreet service, with integrity
www.academy-inc.com www.muir-academy.com guy@tawse.com
PO Box 135, Hereford, HR2 7WL, UK +44(0)1432 343100