Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:43 PM
>
>
> Author wrote:
>> In message
>> <312580.1129552145355.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
>> demolitionred@yahoo.com writes
>> >We have money coming in.
>> >
>> >I have three pledges of 50 squid.
>> >
>> >Conto and jenis et al raised 170 at BBB
>> >
>> >We raised 169 pounds at the last meeting.
>> >
>> >When do we have to pay Rabinder Singh?
>> >
>> >And how soon will he give us a response?
>> I would suggest that certain sums raised be ring fenced for payment of
>> these fees.
>> A decision will have to be made by the Unfettered crew (to whom a copy
>> of this is being sent) as to whether sums expended so far by Unfettered
>> be treated as loans or donations to Backlash.
>> By the way, Counsel (who cannot sue for fees) like to be paid upfront.
>> --
>> ^Thunder^
>
> All the pledges so far are donated on the basis that we're tryng to raise
> 1000 for the QC so they are ringfenced.
>
> The 418? made from hat collections hasn't been allocated but I suggest we
> need to pay the QC pretty soon if we want a response in time to be useful
> in the consultaion process.
>
> I have written to the Spanner Trust asking for a timetable.
>
> I think if the fundraising carries on this smoothly, we will soon be able
> to refund whatever unfettered wants back quite soon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
> To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
> Report abuse
> http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D1616
>
>
Manniq, 17 Oct 2005 17:17:55
Serious question: any news on the particular legal vehicle we are using - and whether there is any way in which donations can be tax deductible? Or even gift-aided (not sure whether these two amount to the same thing or whether there are not different qualifying rules)
Two reasons for asking. If I give £100 and this is tax deductible, the cost to me is only £60 - which means I can either save money or, if I think I can genuinely afford £100, ought to up my donation to £166.67. Clearly starts to make a difference if/when Backlash gets a few more bigger donations.
Second, Gift Aid. As I understand it, this seems to allow that the tax that would be paid on a gift gets reclaimed by the organisation. Oh, sod it: I can't remember the formulation. However, I do know that it used to be worth a lot of money to my daughter's school.
Anyone know the precise position? Do we have to be a registered charity? Or do the inland revenue draw the line more broadly?
Regards,
M
Author wrote:
> We have money coming in.
> I have four pledges of 50 squid.
> And another pledge for 200 pounds
> Conto and jenis et al raised 173 at BBB
> We raised 169 pounds at the last meeting. and 75? at the first meeting.
> When do we have to pay Rabinder Singh?
> And how soon will he give us a response?
Paul Tavener, 17 Oct 2005 20:09:28
Author wrote:
> We have money coming in.
> I have four pledges of 50 squid.
> And another pledge for 200 pounds
> Conto and jenis et al raised 173 at BBB
> We raised 169 pounds at the last meeting. and 75? at the first meeting.
> When do we have to pay Rabinder Singh?
> And how soon will he give us a response?
Is there any chance of getting some form of paypal or equivalent set up so that people can donate on line? It would be so much easier, and giving money should be made as easy as possoble.
I know Llyods do a clubs and societies account that is designed specificaly for small groups - although it seems to take weeks to get it sorted out.
rosalee, 17 Oct 2005 21:28:01
What about Nochex? People don't need to have an account with them to use it.
Ginny
----- Original Message -----
: admin@ofwatch.org.uk, 17 Oct 2005 21:28:01
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:09 PM
Subject: [backlash] RE: money for the QC
Author wrote:
> We have money coming in.
> I have four pledges of 50 squid.
> And another pledge for 200 pounds
> Conto and jenis et al raised 173 at BBB
> We raised 169 pounds at the last meeting. and 75? at the first meeting.
> When do we have to pay Rabinder Singh?
> And how soon will he give us a response?
Is there any chance of getting some form of paypal or equivalent set up so that people can donate on line? It would be so much easier, and giving money should be made as easy as possoble.
I know Llyods do a clubs and societies account that is designed specificaly for small groups - although it seems to take weeks to get it sorted out.
--
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adrian, 17 Oct 2005 22:05:41
At 20:09 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Author wrote:
>> We have money coming in.
>> I have four pledges of 50 squid.
>> And another pledge for 200 pounds
>> Conto and jenis et al raised 173 at BBB
>> We raised 169 pounds at the last meeting. and 75? at the first meeting.
>> When do we have to pay Rabinder Singh?
>> And how soon will he give us a response?
>
>Is there any chance of getting some form of paypal or equivalent set up so
that people can donate on line? It would be so much easier, and giving
money should be made as easy as possoble.
We can set one up as soon as we can get a bank account, or can agree on a
trusted org with a bank account (such as Spanner) who might take on the
job. If they can supply credit card details they can collect the money but
all sums are logged and recorded.
adrian, 17 Oct 2005 22:08:23
At 21:21 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>What about Nochex? People don't need to have an account with them to use it.
>
>Ginny
>
Nochex is the one LFS and Unfettered use, and which is best for a number of
reasons IMO. Including the fact that I have it all set up already!
Thunder, 17 Oct 2005 22:19:16
In message
<4403573.1129565869714.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
manniq@hotmail.com writes
>Serious question: any news on the particular legal vehicle we are using
>- and whether there is any way in which donations can be tax
>deductible? Or even gift-aided (not sure whether these two amount to
>the same thing or whether there are not different qualifying rules)
>
>Two reasons for asking. If I give £100 and this is tax deductible, the
>cost to me is only £60 - which means I can either save money or, if I
>think I can genuinely afford £100, ought to up my donation to £166.67.
>Clearly starts to make a difference if/when Backlash gets a few more
>bigger donations.
Any expense of a business has to be wholly and exclusively for business
purposes to be allowed against tax (see below for gift aid) a donation
is seldom such (unless it is for instance in connection with a charity
which relates to one's trade i.e. rest home for retired perverts :))
>
>Second, Gift Aid. As I understand it, this seems to allow that the tax
>that would be paid on a gift gets reclaimed by the organisation. Oh,
>sod it: I can't remember the formulation. However, I do know that it
>used to be worth a lot of money to my daughter's school.
>
>Anyone know the precise position? Do we have to be a registered
>charity? Or do the inland revenue draw the line more broadly?
Gift Aid is a tax relief for cash gifts to UK charities (only exception
are gifts to Community Amateur Sports Clubs)
>
--
^Thunder^
Manniq, 17 Oct 2005 23:34:07
Wasn't thinking of tax deductibles for business. Rather, the fact that tax is deductible on charitable donations. Despite the pleading of my accountant at one time, I could never be arsed to set myself up as a limited company - actually don't wholly approve, but that's another issue entirely - so pay tax as self-employed...and I do know that I was getting higher rate relief on donations to my daughter's school at one time. Or it may have been their building fund or some such.
Used to be standard practice in the church I attended as well: if someone is going to give you £x...why not fill out a form so that you get £x+ with a little help from the tax man.
Is there an accountant in the house?
Reagrds,
M
Author wrote:
> In message
> <4403573.1129565869714.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
> manniq@hotmail.com writes
> >Serious question: any news on the particular legal vehicle we are using
> >- and whether there is any way in which donations can be tax
> >deductible? Or even gift-aided (not sure whether these two amount to
> >the same thing or whether there are not different qualifying rules)
> >
> >Two reasons for asking. If I give £100 and this is tax deductible, the
> >cost to me is only £60 - which means I can either save money or, if I
> >think I can genuinely afford £100, ought to up my donation to £166.67.
> >Clearly starts to make a difference if/when Backlash gets a few more
> >bigger donations.
> Any expense of a business has to be wholly and exclusively for business
> purposes to be allowed against tax (see below for gift aid) a donation
> is seldom such (unless it is for instance in connection with a charity
> which relates to one's trade i.e. rest home for retired perverts :))
> >
> >Second, Gift Aid. As I understand it, this seems to allow that the tax
> >that would be paid on a gift gets reclaimed by the organisation. Oh,
> >sod it: I can't remember the formulation. However, I do know that it
> >used to be worth a lot of money to my daughter's school.
> >
> >Anyone know the precise position? Do we have to be a registered
> >charity? Or do the inland revenue draw the line more broadly?
> Gift Aid is a tax relief for cash gifts to UK charities (only exception
> are gifts to Community Amateur Sports Clubs)
> >
> --
> ^Thunder^
adrian, 17 Oct 2005 23:46:17
At 23:33 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Is there an accountant in the house?
Yes... Thunder is! He seems to be saying no we can't.
Chris, 17 Oct 2005 23:58:45
Not being a tax specialist, I can't give you chapter and verse, but I'd
agree with Thunder that broadly you'd have to be a charity to use Gift Aid.
There are a few other special cases (church collections, educational trips)
but they don't apply to Backlash. I believe we could apply to HMRC to have
Backlash treated as charitable without it being a registered charity, if it
had charitable aims (as opposed to political ones), but it doesn't so we
can't.
It used to be the case that you could make a gift under deed of covenant and
it had the same effect, but I think that was replaced by Gift Aid, and again
only applied to a fairly narrow definition of charities or quasi-charities.
If anyone is really interested (and I can't imagine why you would be), the
HMRC guidance is from para 3.42 on of this link.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/chapter_3.pdf
----Original Message Follows----
Adrian
, 17 Oct 2005 23:58:45
At 23:33 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Is there an accountant in the house?
Yes... Thunder is! He seems to be saying no we can't.
--
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Thunder, 18 Oct 2005 00:14:22
In message
<3600295.1129588423927.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
manniq@hotmail.com writes
>Wasn't thinking of tax deductibles for business. Rather, the fact that
>tax is deductible on charitable donations. Despite the pleading of my
>accountant at one time, I could never be arsed to set myself up as a
>limited company - actually don't wholly approve, but that's another
>issue entirely - so pay tax as self-employed...and I do know that I was
>getting higher rate relief on donations to my daughter's school at one
>time. Or it may have been their building fund or some such.
>
>Used to be standard practice in the church I attended as well: if
>someone is going to give you £x...why not fill out a form so that you
>get £x+ with a little help from the tax man.
>
>Is there an accountant in the house?
>
>Reagrds,
>
>M
Yes me :)
Schools can be set up as charities and places of religion. Often things
were set up as Covenants (or a variation a Loan Covenant which the
Revenue turned a blind eye to. i.e. you paid a sum which was deemed to
be a first instalment of a Deed of Covenant and a loan repayable over
the following 6 years, each part of which was used for the next
instalment of the Deed) but since 6/4/2000 DOC were brought into the
Gift Aid scheme
--
^Thunder^
Manniq, 18 Oct 2005 00:16:04
He seems to be saying no to his understanding of my the initial question. If at first one doesn't succeed, try, try and try again. Certainly, that has usually been my exerience of the inland revenue.
I am sure Thunder is a good person to ask. As a matter of unrelated interest: he doesn't do Forensic Accountancy by any chance?
Just had a rather large quote from an FA for what feels like quite a straightforward job....
Regards,
M
Author wrote:
> At 23:33 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
> >Is there an accountant in the house?
> Yes... Thunder is! He seems to be saying no we can't.
Manniq, 18 Oct 2005 00:17:56
Ah, yes. That was the blighter. I did a deed of covenant.
Ta,
M
Author wrote:
> In message
> <3600295.1129588423927.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
> manniq@hotmail.com writes
> >Wasn't thinking of tax deductibles for business. Rather, the fact that
> >tax is deductible on charitable donations. Despite the pleading of my
> >accountant at one time, I could never be arsed to set myself up as a
> >limited company - actually don't wholly approve, but that's another
> >issue entirely - so pay tax as self-employed...and I do know that I was
> >getting higher rate relief on donations to my daughter's school at one
> >time. Or it may have been their building fund or some such.
> >
> >Used to be standard practice in the church I attended as well: if
> >someone is going to give you £x...why not fill out a form so that you
> >get £x+ with a little help from the tax man.
> >
> >Is there an accountant in the house?
> >
> >Reagrds,
> >
> >M
> Yes me :)
> Schools can be set up as charities and places of religion. Often things
> were set up as Covenants (or a variation a Loan Covenant which the
> Revenue turned a blind eye to. i.e. you paid a sum which was deemed to
> be a first instalment of a Deed of Covenant and a loan repayable over
> the following 6 years, each part of which was used for the next
> instalment of the Deed) but since 6/4/2000 DOC were brought into the
> Gift Aid scheme
> --
> ^Thunder^
«No Name Set», 18 Oct 2005 19:55:15
Thought we'd already exhausted this, but let's fill in.
UK POSITION:
To reclaim tax on donations *from UK tax payers*, an organisationmust be a registered charity.
As I posted before, we currently don't have a hope of doing thisbecause the Charity COmmissioners just aren't interested insmall organisations, and we aren't (yet) anything like big enough.
Even if/when we get big enough, we have to have *charitableobjectives* - generally promoting welfare, education, orreligion. We would only get the charitable status on the partsof our activities that counts as pursuing charitable objectives,not any political campaigning work. Theoretically there mightbe a charity with aims of educating the BDSM community is safepractices and offering succour to those in distress as a resultof bad experiences. But we'd have to be turning over 10Ks onthis. Campaigning against a proposed new law isn't a charitableobjective.
ISTR the Charity Commissioners also like their cahrities to beregistered as limited companies, limited by guarantee (orpossibly some of the alternative newer forms). THis also limitsthe personal liability of the "committee members" to cases wherethey've ben negligent or fraudulent, if the organisation goesbankrupt.
For the record, here's how it works if the org is a charity.
UK tax payers give a donation to their preferred charity, and sign
a Gift Aid declaration to say they've paid the basic rate tax on
the donation. Then the organisation can reclaim the *basic rate*
tax (that's 22% now) back from the Revenue. Higher rate tax
payers can fill in the donation on their next year's tax return
and reclaim for themselves the difference between the basic (22%)
rate and the higher (40%) rate. This ought to mean they can
afford to donate more.
An alternative route, for people who are *employed* (as distinctfrom self-employed) and paid by PAYE through the employers'payroll, is through Give As You Earn. In this case, the payrollwill deduct the donation each month before taking off the tax,and send it to the employee's favourite charity. Or it could besend to something called a Charities Aid Foundation account,whence the donor can distribute it to whichever charities s/helikes by sending the charities C.A.F. vounchers.
*Foreign* tax payers can sometimes reclaim themselves tax paidon donations to UK charities - the thing to do is to give them areceipt with all the registration etc details and let them sortit out.
CONTINENTAL WESTERN EUROPEAN POSITION:
Typically, CWE tax payers can make donations to European
"registered organisations" and reclaim the tax they paid on the
donation through their tax forms. They need a receipt with the
organisation's official name and registration number. (A CWE"registered organisation" is a form that doesn't exist in UK law- basically you right a constitution like for a club, then getit certified by a notary and register at the local Chamber ofCommerce.)
UK tax payers can make tax-efficient donations to Europeancharitable organisations through a CAF account *funded by GiftAid* (ie. sending donations directly, not through GAYE). Butyou have to approach CAF specifically about each one.
Takes big breath: if anyone knows any Dutch organisations who'dlike to join the backlash umbrella, who could lend a Dutchaddress and know a friendly Dutch notary, we could register as aDutch registered organisation. I've done this before and - evenbigger breath - could get the paperwork together.
It really isn't something worth takin gup valuable time over ATM.
Rosemary
manniq@hotmail.com writes:
Serious question: any news on the particular legal vehicle we are using - a nd whether there is any way in which donations can be tax deductible? Or e ve
n gift-aided (not sure whether these two amount to the same thing or whet her there are not diff
erent qualifying rules)
Two reasons for asking. If I give £100 and this is tax deductible, the c ost to me is only £60 - which means I can either save money or, if I thin k I ca
n genuinely afford £100, ought to up my donation to £166.67. Cle arly starts to make a differen
ce if/when Backlash gets a few more bigger do nations.
Second, Gift Aid. As I understand it, this seems to allow that the tax tha t would be paid on a gift gets reclaimed by the organisation. Oh, sod it: Ican't remember the formulation. However, I do know that it used to be wo rth a lot of money tomy daughter's school.
Anyone know the precise position? Do we have to be a registered charity? Or do the inland revenue draw the line more broadly?
Regards,
M
--Rosemary
Manniq, 18 Oct 2005 22:06:39
Rosemary, you are a star!
Author wrote:
> Thought we'd already exhausted this, but let's fill in.
> UK POSITION:
> To reclaim tax on donations *from UK tax payers*, an organisationmust be a registered charity.
> As I posted before, we currently don't have a hope of doing thisbecause the Charity COmmissioners just aren't interested insmall organisations, and we aren't (yet) anything like big enough.
> Even if/when we get big enough, we have to have *charitableobjectives* - generally promoting welfare, education, orreligion. We would only get the charitable status on the partsof our activities that counts as pursuing charitable objectives,not any political campaigning work. Theoretically there mightbe a charity with aims of educating the BDSM community is safepractices and offering succour to those in distress as a resultof bad experiences. But we'd have to be turning over 10Ks onthis. Campaigning against a proposed new law isn't a charitableobjective.
> ISTR the Charity Commissioners also like their cahrities to beregistered as limited companies, limited by guarantee (orpossibly some of the alternative newer forms). THis also limitsthe personal liability of the "committee members" to cases wherethey've ben negligent or fraudulent, if the organisation goesbankrupt.
> For the record, here's how it works if the org is a charity.
> UK tax payers give a donation to their preferred charity, and sign
> a Gift Aid declaration to say they've paid the basic rate tax on
> the donation. Then the organisation can reclaim the *basic rate*
> tax (that's 22% now) back from the Revenue. Higher rate tax
> payers can fill in the donation on their next year's tax return
> and reclaim for themselves the difference between the basic (22%)
> rate and the higher (40%) rate. This ought to mean they can
> afford to donate more.
> An alternative route, for people who are *employed* (as distinctfrom self-employed) and paid by PAYE through the employers'payroll, is through Give As You Earn. In this case, the payrollwill deduct the donation each month before taking off the tax,and send it to the employee's favourite charity. Or it could besend to something called a Charities Aid Foundation account,whence the donor can distribute it to whichever charities s/helikes by sending the charities C.A.F. vounchers.
> *Foreign* tax payers can sometimes reclaim themselves tax paidon donations to UK charities - the thing to do is to give them areceipt with all the registration etc details and let them sortit out.
> CONTINENTAL WESTERN EUROPEAN POSITION:
> Typically, CWE tax payers can make donations to European
> "registered organisations" and reclaim the tax they paid on the
> donation through their tax forms. They need a receipt with the
> organisation's official name and registration number. (A CWE"registered organisation" is a form that doesn't exist in UK law- basically you right a constitution like for a club, then getit certified by a notary and register at the local Chamber ofCommerce.)
> UK tax payers can make tax-efficient donations to Europeancharitable organisations through a CAF account *funded by GiftAid* (ie. sending donations directly, not through GAYE). Butyou have to approach CAF specifically about each one.
> Takes big breath: if anyone knows any Dutch organisations who'dlike to join the backlash umbrella, who could lend a Dutchaddress and know a friendly Dutch notary, we could register as aDutch registered organisation. I've done this before and - evenbigger breath - could get the paperwork together.
> It really isn't something worth takin gup valuable time over ATM.
> Rosemary
> manniq@hotmail.com writes:
> Serious question: any news on the particular legal vehicle we are using - a nd whether there is any way in which donations can be tax deductible? Or e ve
> n gift-aided (not sure whether these two amount to the same thing or whet her there are not diff
> erent qualifying rules)
> Two reasons for asking. If I give £100 and this is tax deductible, the c ost to me is only £60 - which means I can either save money or, if I thin k I ca
> n genuinely afford £100, ought to up my donation to £166.67. Cle arly starts to make a differen
> ce if/when Backlash gets a few more bigger do nations.
> Second, Gift Aid. As I understand it, this seems to allow that the tax tha t would be paid on a gift gets reclaimed by the organisation. Oh, sod it: Ican't remember the formulation. However, I do know that it used to be wo rth a lot of money tomy daughter's school.
> Anyone know the precise position? Do we have to be a registered charity? Or do the inland revenue draw the line more broadly?
> Regards,
> M
> --Rosemary
«No Name Set», 20 Oct 2005 18:03:56
Well now....
manniq@hotmail.com writes:
Rosemary, you are a star!
how nice to see a man appreciating me with all appropriate
reverence!
Even better that spnding 4 years as Finance Director of a
Europe-wide Dutch-registere Non-Profit company has not been
totally wasted.
--
Rosemary