Thread

Opinion Polling--Petition--Consultation Response

AV8R, 16 Oct 2005 02:31:01

One of the biggest challenges we face is the fact that the proposed legislation is entirely political in nature, and is being motivated by the Jane Longhurst Trusts campaign and associated petition, which is calling for 100,000 signatures by January.

It seems that the wider BDSM community, for a variety of reasons, is not particularly motivated to fight this legislation. And responses to the consultation from just a few hundred (if we're lucky)activists, is not likely to hold much weight against the massive response and petition drive the JLT has secured.

Which brings me to the following.

Surely a petition drive at munches, clubs, and more importantly amongst the general public, would be helpful if we could round up at least a few thousand signatures.

This may be possible if we can limit the scope of the petition to a very vague wording, such as for the BDSM community:

"We, the undersigned, oppose any proposed legislation that seeks to criminalise the possession of images of consenting acts between adults."

Or for the general public:

"We, the undersigned, oppose any legislation that would remove from the individual their right to decide for themselves what is appropriate matter to view on the internet, particularly when this censorship would prohibit the viewing of material that is legal in the host country. It is very dissapointing that the UK government is considering adopting the same oppressive tactics for internet censorship used by dictatorial regimes such as China and Saudi Arabia"

With regards to Opinion Polling, again, given the lack of willingness of the average BDSM community member to take a stand and provide responses to the consultation, not surprisingly given the prejudices that still exist in our society towards sexual minorities, one of the most important tools we have in making our case is that of Opinion Polling.

It is a language that politicians understand. It provides a means for our lobbyists to verify our claims about representing large numbers of people, and it provides a safe and anonymous format for people to express their opposition to the governments proposed legislation, and for our tacticians to guage and understand the general publics positions and receptiveness to various arguments.

Polling does not need to be expensive, it can be done in-house with volunteers so long as it's for our own internal use only in guaging public attitudes.

If we need to present the data, then we may be able to get a reputable third party, such as a university, to conduct the polling as a class project at no charge.

Even if we have to pay for it, we do not need to hire Gallup or YouGov, there are many good smaller reputable companies that can use scientifically correct methodology to provide valid certifiable results that will stand any examination.

I think the benefits are clear, but I would be interested in everyones input.

Graham Marsden, 16 Oct 2005 02:58:24

av8r0344@hotmail.com wrote:

> Surely a petition drive at munches, clubs, and more importantly
> amongst the general public, would be helpful if we could round
> up at least a few thousand signatures.

This has already been discussed (back at the start of September) and it
seems (as far as I can tell) that the consensus was that it would be a
bad idea as it could be seen as us "competing" with the Jane Longhurst
Campaign and trying to play a "numbers game" against them.

The last message I can find referring to it was on the 13th of
September, after which it died a quiet death.

Cheers,
Graham.

AV8R, 16 Oct 2005 03:42:26

Author wrote:
> av8r0344@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Surely a petition drive at munches, clubs, and more importantly
> > amongst the general public, would be helpful if we could round
> > up at least a few thousand signatures.
> This has already been discussed (back at the start of September) and it
> seems (as far as I can tell) that the consensus was that it would be a
> bad idea as it could be seen as us "competing" with the Jane Longhurst
> Campaign and trying to play a "numbers game" against them.
> The last message I can find referring to it was on the 13th of
> September, after which it died a quiet death.
> Cheers,
> Graham.

And what on earth is wrong with "competing" or playing a "numbers game"?

This whole thing is political in nature, and politicians respond to numbers.

Most reputable studies estimate that around 10% of the population has an interest in BDSM. Even if you exclude children and pensioners, thats still SEVERAL MILLION people.

But we need to be able to back this up.

Petitions or Polling, pick your poison, but we need one or the other. Otherwise the government will write us off as a tiny minority that cannot possibly impact them in any serious way.

Newsflash---- The Government couldn't care less about lofty intellectual arguments re free speech or personal liberties. A look at the legislation of the last 15 years should make this abundantly clear to even the most naive of idealists. This is about POLITICS, and POPULAR SUPPORT. Show them we have enough support to influence a close election or two, and we have a chance. Otherwise be prepared to lose.

We dont need to beat the petition numbers the JLT folks can garner, but we do need to establish a credible method of proving we have considerable support.

It really does seem that we are making little tangible progress other than a couple of dozen people debating back and forth in this forum.

Things like this should just be common sense, Politics 101....

We are two months into the process and all we have to show for it is a couple of dozen responses to the consultation, and maybe a few meetings with MP's..... We could have collected thousands of signatures by now.

Graham Marsden, 16 Oct 2005 04:50:25

av8r0344@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>Surely a petition drive at munches, clubs, and more importantly
>>> amongst the general public, would be helpful if we could round
>>> up at least a few thousand signatures.
>
>>This has already been discussed (back at the start of September) and it
>>seems (as far as I can tell) that the consensus was that it would be a
>>bad idea as it could be seen as us "competing" with the Jane Longhurst
>>Campaign and trying to play a "numbers game" against them.
>
> And what on earth is wrong with "competing" or playing a "numbers game"?

Quoting from the messages when this was first discussed (because I'm not
going to go over the arguments again):

* * * * *

Threads on IC are saying

(1) keep any petition really short because people won't read all our
long stuff

(2) Petition will only show we have less support than the Longhurst camp.

(3) A lot of the argument we are having is about detail which is
difficult to precis accurately.

This mitigates aganist a petition.

* * * * *

1. You will be playing a numbers game against the Longhurst petition
that already has a 35,000 head start.

2. The whole essence of the campaign is that things in society should
be permitted or prohibited according to a defensible princple, not
just according to the tastes of a majority.

3. It's a lot easier to get signatories to a petition calling for a
ban on something rather than for one where people advocating an
activity about to be banned are opposing it. Many people will feel,
perhaps rightly, that they are giving their details to the government
as potential suspects once a law comes into force.

4. The likelihood of a positive outcome of a petition is minimal. To
achieve it, the petition would need, I'd estimate, tens or hundreds of
thousands of signatures. I doubt there is sufficient time before 9
December to do this, even if enough people were prepared to sign in
principle.

There are many ways the campaign can better use its time. The likely
benefits are minimal and the risks are great.

* * * * *

And who is going to actually put themselves on the public line to
collect the signatures?

* * * * *

If a sizable petition can be presented to coincide
with the report from the consultation (which, if
people in the campaign have been writing letters as
private individuals, will show a strong response
opposed to new legislation) then it might just have
enough impact to help sway the balance.

However, a petition at this stage is not going to be
very effective. Writing letters to the consultation,
giving carefully-reasoned (and individually composed)
answers to the consultation questions, will. I and
others have provided resources to help people write
their own letters and/or question responses.

* * * * *

I'm still not entirely convinced on the idea of the petition. Yes, it
could bring up a "substatial minority" of people, but it could also be
seen (or spun as being) in bad taste as if we're somehow "competing"
against Jane Longhurst's family if we're not very careful.

* * * * *

Etc.

Much of what was proposed for the petition question later became the
"mission statement".

> This whole thing is political in nature, and politicians respond to
> numbers.

And if the Jane Longhurst campaign has 35,000+ signatures and ours only
has 3,500, that's a ten to one bias in their favour.

> Most reputable studies estimate that around 10% of the population
> has an interest in BDSM.

But how many of them would put their names to it?!

(And it's all very well to criticise them for this, but they have jobs
and families to consider.)

> Newsflash---- The Government couldn't care less about lofty
> intellectual arguments re free speech or personal liberties. A
> look at the legislation of the last 15 years should make this
> abundantly clear to even the most naive of idealists. This
> is about POLITICS, and POPULAR SUPPORT. Show them we have
> enough support to influence a close election or two, and we
> have a chance. Otherwise be prepared to lose.

If you really think that we can raise enough support "to influence a
close election or two" and that this will help us win our case I suggest
you take a look at the fuel protests of a few years ago.

Lots of support, bugger all result.

> It really does seem that we are making little tangible progress
> other than a couple of dozen people debating back and forth in
> this forum.

Fine, so what have *you* done? Written to your MP yet? Responded to the
consultation yet?

> Things like this should just be common sense, Politics 101....

"Common sense"? Or "the way you think it should work"?

> We are two months into the process and all we have to show for
> it is a couple of dozen responses to the consultation, and
> maybe a few meetings with MP's..... We could have collected
> thousands of signatures by now.

Could we have? Again I ask how many people would actually put their
names down.

If you think you can do this, please, go ahead.

Cheers,
Graham.

zak, 16 Oct 2005 11:25:20

Original Message:
-----------------

av8r0344@hotmail.com, 16 Oct 2005 11:25:20

Surely a petition drive at munches, clubs, and more importantly amongst the
general
public, would be helpful if we could round up at least a few thousand
signatures.

A petition is a much better idea than an opinion poll, because opinion
polls offer only
the vaguest of guidelines as to what people think at any given time. Polls
about sexual
feelings and behaviour are particularly unreliable because people polled
often l

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demolitionred, 17 Oct 2005 09:25:46

unfortunately, this is a political game and politicians are used to a certain way of doing things

a swamp of responses to the consulation paper would be great -- not sure we have won the battle yet convincing people to do that.

People I know within whitehall and the poltical lobbying community also say a petiton is taken as a sign that people are interested and willing to stand up and fight -- especially important fo MPs in marginal seats.

As long as the petition -- or petitions -- take the freedom line, people would be happy to stand outside Sainsburys and people would be happy to sign.

We could simultaneously do a BDSM one in BDSM events. Given that we are a group representing an alternative sexuality which is deemed to be mentally unfit and the majority of whose members protect their anonymity with a vengeance, any numbers here would carry a heavy weight too.

Thunder, 17 Oct 2005 10:51:55

In message
<2538381.1129537543645.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>,
demolitionred@yahoo.com writes
>As long as the petition -- or petitions -- take the freedom line,
>people would be happy to stand outside Sainsburys and people would be
>happy to sign.
>
>We could simultaneously do a BDSM one in BDSM events. Given that we are
>a group representing an alternative sexuality which is deemed to be
>mentally unfit and the majority of whose members protect their
>anonymity with a vengeance, any numbers here would carry a heavy weight
>too.
>
>
>
There is, from memory, an online petition site.

The reason I say this is, for instance, I have a (nearly 1,200 members)
MSN BDSM group and if an online site were to be used I could circulate
all members to point them to the site (and other Yahoo/MSN group
Moderators/Managers could do the same too)
>
--
^Thunder^ - UK Essex BDSM
http://www.ukessex.org.uk http://groups.msn.com/UKEssx
Unfettered http://www.unfettered.co.uk

Lothario, 17 Oct 2005 12:03:30

On 10/17/05, demolitionred@yahoo.com wrote:

> As long as the petition -- or petitions -- take the freedom line, people would be happy to stand outside Sainsburys and people would be happy to sign.
>

I'm sure it would work fine within the BDSM community but get nowhere
with the general public.

Most people, when asked, support the idea of freedom and freedom of
speech. However, if the specific freedom you're campaigning about is
the freedom of people to view images that the general public dislikes,
you'll find that most people aren't particularly interested in the
principle and would rather see those that they think of as sick
perverts locked up.

Online petitions cut no ice with the government. A petition needs to
be on paper, with the signatories full names, addresses and
signatures. This is so that it can be validated by sample if
necessary. There is no equivalent way of doing this online at present
that I know of.

--
Lothario.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right
to stop you saying it." - Charles Clarke (attributed)

Thunder, 17 Oct 2005 12:33:11

In message
, Lothario
writes
>Online petitions cut no ice with the government. A petition needs to
>be on paper, with the signatories full names, addresses and
>signatures. This is so that it can be validated by sample if
>necessary. There is no equivalent way of doing this online at present
>that I know of.
>
>--
>Lothario.
>
Have a look at petitiononline.com and the following UK Petition to
Parliament.
http://www.petitiononline.com/P2P2005/petition.html
Note that all signatories give their names and addresses (though
probably not desirable for those, who, in fact, don't want these details
to be public knowledge)

--
^Thunder^

zak, 17 Oct 2005 12:45:56

Original Message:
-----------------

Lothario lothario.uk@gmail.com, 17 Oct 2005 12:45:56

Online petitions cut no ice with the government. A petition needs to
be on paper, with the signatories full names, addresses and
signatures. This is so that it can be validated by sample if
necessary. There is no equivalent way of doing this online at present
that I know of.

--
Lothario.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right
to stop you saying it." - Charles Clarke (attributed)

I'm sure I heard somewhere that individual letters to MPs are far more
effective than
petitions - as a petition, no matter how many names are on it, is counted
as one letter.

The more politically active folks on here may be able to confirm whether or
not that's so.

ZJK

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Amelie, 17 Oct 2005 12:52:41

note also that the consultation document itself accepts on-line responses
and offers anonymity.
----- Original Message -----

"^Thunder^" , 17 Oct 2005 12:52:41

To:
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:32 PM

> In message
> , Lothario
> writes
>>Online petitions cut no ice with the government. A petition needs to
>>be on paper, with the signatories full names, addresses and
>>signatures. This is so that it can be validated by sample if
>>necessary. There is no equivalent way of doing this online at present
>>that I know of.
>>
>>--
>>Lothario.
>>
> Have a look at petitiononline.com and the following UK Petition to
> Parliament.
> http://www.petitiononline.com/P2P2005/petition.html
> Note that all signatories give their names and addresses (though
> probably not desirable for those, who, in fact, don't want these details
> to be public knowledge)
>
> --
> ^Thunder^
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
>
> To leave the Group, email: Backlash-unsubscribe@smartgroups.com
>
> Report abuse
> http://www.smartgroups.com/text/abusereport.cfm?gid%3D3271426&mid%3D1593
>

AV8R, 17 Oct 2005 12:53:59

I think the issue is more that no matter how many people are motivated to write a letter, there will always be substantially more willing to just take 30 seconds to sign a petition at a munch or club.

It would seem sensible to try and get the formal, written support of as many people as possible, ideally through consultation responses and letters, but petition signatures are better than nothing.

Author wrote:
> Original Message:
> -----------------

: Lothario lothario.uk@gmail.com, 17 Oct 2005 12:53:59

> Subject: Re: [backlash] Opinion Polling--Petition--Consultation Response
> Online petitions cut no ice with the government. A petition needs to
> be on paper, with the signatories full names, addresses and
> signatures. This is so that it can be validated by sample if
> necessary. There is no equivalent way of doing this online at present
> that I know of.
> --
> Lothario.
> "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right
> to stop you saying it." - Charles Clarke (attributed)
> I'm sure I heard somewhere that individual letters to MPs are far more
> effective than
> petitions - as a petition, no matter how many names are on it, is counted
> as one letter.
> The more politically active folks on here may be able to confirm whether or
> not that's so.
> ZJK
> --
> If you want to share pictures, use the calendar, or start a vote
> visit http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Backlash
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> Report abuse
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> http://mail2web.com/ .

demolitionred, 17 Oct 2005 12:59:29

from the advice we have had so far:

Group submissions claiming to represent 10,000s of people rank highly.

Submissions from individiuals (whether anoymous or not) are remarkable and therefore unsettling as most consultations garner no interest.

Letters to MPs especially in marginal seats provoke concern (as long as they're are not duplicate, cut and paste campaigns.

Petitions (have to be real and signed) are vital in persuading MPs there is an upswell of opinion -- and provide a catalyst for a photo op, press release.

this is just what people -- with much more experience than me both in politics and in campaigning -- have told me since the start of this campaign.

Amelie, 17 Oct 2005 13:00:51

so who is going to put up our petition on the site? It is free.
I can do it if you like.

----- Original Message -----

"^Thunder^" , 17 Oct 2005 13:00:51

Lothario, 17 Oct 2005 15:23:15

Ok, I was wrong. The world has moved on!

The government now accepts petitions that have collected signatures
via the internet and they can be delivered via email:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page297.asp

However, before rushing off and setting up an online petition,

1. We need to have some sort of consensus that this is actually a good idea.

and if so,

2. We need to find a website that will collect all the relevant
information and allow us to deliver it in a way that the govt wants.
(By email, Word or plain text format)
3. We need to write the proposition.
4. We need to decide on a closing date.
5. We need ideas and people to take responsibility for publicising it.

I'm unclear as to how the official e-petition can interact with
signatures collected on paper, which will be a preferable method in
some instances. It doesn't look like it can.

--
Lothario.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death my right
to stop you saying it." - Charles Clarke (attributed)

rosalee, 17 Oct 2005 15:24:55

I've heard this too, from several different people, who all seemed to know what they were talking about. I may be wrong, but I think one of them was the civil servant (Hessie?) who has been attending backlash meetings.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----

: zak@missdemeanour.idps.co.uk, 17 Oct 2005 15:24:55

Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [backlash] Opinion Polling--Petition--Consultation Response

I'm sure I heard somewhere that individual letters to MPs are far more
effective than
petitions - as a petition, no matter how many names are on it, is counted
as one letter.

The more politically active folks on here may be able to confirm whether or
not that's so.

ZJK

--
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SnowdropExplodes, 17 Oct 2005 16:12:03

--- Lothario wrote:

> Ok, I was wrong. The world has moved on!
>
> The government now accepts petitions that have
> collected signatures
> via the internet and they can be delivered via
> email:
>
> http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page297.asp
>
> However, before rushing off and setting up an online
> petition,
>
> 1. We need to have some sort of consensus that this
> is actually a good idea.

At the moment, it seems to me like a relatively
ineffective use of resources, but I have no objection
to it going ahead if people want it now.

>
> and if so,
>
> 2. We need to find a website that will collect all
> the relevant
> information and allow us to deliver it in a way that
> the govt wants.
> (By email, Word or plain text format)
> 3. We need to write the proposition.
> 4. We need to decide on a closing date.
> 5. We need ideas and people to take responsibility
> for publicising it.

I shudder at the thought of point 3 - after the
trouble we had with the Mission Statement. On the
other hand, I think it is probably worth coming up
with a petition text that we could feel happy about
asking members of the general public to sign. even
if we don't use it straight away, having the petition
ready to go as soon as the consultation period is
over, we will be able to switch smoothly to making
that our key battleground.

as a suggested closing date, I would guess that it
might be good to be able to deliver the petition at
the Labour party conference, because there will be a
lot of media there and we might be able to get more
awareness for the issues that we want to raise.

Ta,

SnowdropExplodes

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Manniq, 17 Oct 2005 17:04:21

I think we can get lost in counting angels on pinheads. (No...not a particular go at you, zak, since I rather like your pov).

On the whole, letters to MPs have more impact than a petition...although a petition with 5 million genuine sigs will tend to score somewhat better than one with 17.

However, I am finding some of the debate on her about what we should do a little stifling. I would regard my approach to campaigning as 'surfing'. Which is that there should be a plan....but that it needs to be malleable, capable of reacting to events and have room to incorporate individuals.

For instance, when it comes to constituency politics, most campaigning in some constituencies COULD be funded by a few well-off bods putting hand in pocket and pulling out a few large cheques. Jumble sales and garden parties are highly inefficient ways of raising money (just think of the time involved).

BUT.... what they do is involve people - sometimes the same old hacks....but sometimes, also, the people who would not be involved otherwise.

A part of this campaign is likely to end up looking very elitist indeed. Fluent vocal people going and having meetings with other fluent vocal types. Good communicators writing articles that they can then admire in print somewhere or other. And if that happens, I sniff failure in the air: because that would be to create a vanguardist campaign ('60's political groupies will know what I mean by that!) in which a small elite progressively get cut off from the rest.

It would be nice if EVERYONE would get up and go visit their MP, if everyone would donate �50 and if everyone would write ten letters to opinion formers.

I know this won't happen - because not everyone has the skill, courage, finance, or whatever, to do some or all of the above.

That said, if someone feels that the most they can do for us at this time is organise a petition, send a fiver, whatever - then let them get on with it! Yes, we need to make sure no overlap. But we are, as the pc brigade would have it, a differently skilled bunch - and we should make sure that there is plenty for everyone to do and that whenever, wherever offers of help come, we are not so rigid in terms of grand planning that we turn them away.

Regards,

M

Author wrote:
> Original Message:
> -----------------

: Lothario lothario.uk@gmail.com, 17 Oct 2005 17:04:21

adrian, 17 Oct 2005 21:51:44

At 13:00 17/10/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>so who is going to put up our petition on the site? It is free.
>I can do it if you like.

Shouldn't we think about it? I fear having to put your name and address
online for all to see might reduce the potential signatories by 75%. I
certainly wouldn't agree to my name and address being public on the
internet even if it was about my preferred washing-up liquid.

Also, I think it's a bit naff using an off the peg service when we could do
it in the site, and also we could keep the addresses private, and also the
names themselves if people preferred (only counted in the total). Only the
document as presented would be public, it wouldn't list your name and
address on the net.

Possibly the independence of petitiononline is worth something, but if it
results in many not voting is it worth it? Also it's pretty damn public if
we get very few votes.

I can produce the same sort of thing on the site bit with the degree of
anonymity as required by the signer.